State Game Laws you'd like to see altered or removed

[buckeyebowhunter]

I posted this earlier then removed it because i didn't want to seem like i was bashing bait hunters, even though i am against it. However, since you guys brought up QDM, i feel that without bait many younger bucks would have a much better chance at survival and reaching maturity. Unfortunately our hunting culture has pretty much turned into a "buck or nothing" mindset. And many guys i know won't even shoot a doe or consider it.  These young bucks that become trained to come into corn piles don't even stand a chance.

[JR Chambers]

I wish we could substitute a bow for a muzzleloader

[murph60]

No cameras after season starts.
No crossbows till the last 2 weeks of bow season.
   On the public land talk about leaving stands. I heard if you put up a ladder stand on public ground it becomes public also. If someone is in the stand you put there. Its tough stuff. He has the right. Sooo

[GCook]

Actually baiting allows you to use trail cam pics to age bucks, determine bucks that need time to mature, bucks that have less than desirable characteristics like no brow tines, etc you may want to remove from breeding.  Having a list of shooter/non-shooter bucks makes it easier to make prior decisions on what is a good decision for the herd and for what each individual needs time wise to reach maturity and pass on genetics.
I think most younger hunters are brown it's down.  Regardless of a bait pile or not.  Heck I was.  That's part of the process.  Go to any hunters safety course and you will be taught about the progression of what hunters consider success. When you're young you look to get your limit by any means.  Then you get more selective of means and what you shoot.  Older folks tend to mentor more, seek out certain animals.  Some it may be a buck they have history with.  Another younger bucks and doe are better table fare to. 
I also think in high hunter density and low deer density areas brown and down is more prevalent because that might be the only buck you see. Especially public hunting areas.
I won't begin to say baiting is as difficult as other styles of hunting.  But it is widely accepted, legal and embraced across much of the country. And many of those places seem to have healthy deer densities.
The reality is there are way more hunters than land for them and game on that land in far to much of our country. 
That's not gonna change and only getting worse.

[actionjackson22]

I live in Ohio and also have a cabin in Cameron county PA,Sunday hunting would be a welcome change in PA especially for us out of staters. No crossbows in archery season, no baiting in Ohio and another thing in Ohio is just access, I live in the northwest part of the state and there is only one public land property within a two hour drive of my house. As I type this I'm sitting on a state owned property that only allows hunting if you know a guy who knows a guy which is wrong but man it's good hunting. I used to draw a controlled hunt every other year especially for archery and now the odds are outrageous. Access is still the hardest part about Ohio I think .

[KentuckyWolf]

Never understood the legality of banning Sunday hunting…given the separation of church and state (Not all people or religions worship on Sunday, not everyone worships in a church, etc). Seems like something a state hunter organization should lobby to change or challenge in court.

Side note:
Never understood the legality of “dry” counties in southern states post prohibition, or bans on Sunday sales.

[murph60]

Maybe its the game warden day off.LOL

[buckeyebowhunter]

Gcook,

I appreciate and understand your response. But a well placed trail camera over a scrape or heavily used travel corridor would do the same thing. The whole "I'm just using bait to inventory my deer" doesn't have much merit in my eyes.

There actually aren't a lot of states that allow baiting, or if they do it is with stipulations such as removing the bait 10 days before hunting season. Ohio does not allow turkey hunting with bait, so why are we allowed to with deer? Most other midwest states require bait and mineral sites to be gone before the start of hunting season. I believe Kansas allows baiting.

Also I agree with what you are saying about the progression and maturing a young hunter goes through.  No problem with youngsters having the "brown and down" mentality, but a young hunter that blasts a 150" buck over a bait pile during gun season has learned very little about the actual process of a hunt, and I'm not saying that I wouldn't be thrilled if a youngster shoots a big buck, but what do they have to look forward to as a hunter if they can just throw up their bait pile each year and kill a big buck? If that is all they're learning about the process of a hunt then that is what concerns me about the future of hunting.

[GCook]

Baiting deer is allowed in these states: Arizona, Hawaii, Kansas, Nevada, New Hampshire, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina, Utah, and Washington.
We could argue all day long and not change each other's minds.  The reality is though Texas has a very large and healthy deer population and we don't have the agricultural production to support it like Midwest corn and soybean states.  We grow deer by keeping them fed and healthy. 
My personal property this year has a fawn crop specifically because we spent thousands of dollars to maintain water and supplemental fees during a severe drought.  YMMV but like social media or opiates it can be used for productive things and misused. 

[woodchucker]

New York does not allow baiting.
BUT, you can plant a "food plot" 
NYSDEC says the "food plot" is "agricultural"

You can buy a farm, and plant crops, and just leave them in the field for the deer to eat.
The farmer next door, needs his crops for income, and can't afford to just sit and let the deer eat them.

Long story short... The rich man, bought a "deer farm"....

I said before, QDM only works, where you can control the hunting, to shoot only age class bucks.
As Gary stated above, baited trail cameras, allow you to target age class bucks, and let others grow older.

Back to the 2 farmers....
The rich man bought a farm, to kill big bucks....
His neighbor kills any buck that's legal, to fill his freezer...

The buck doesn't know which side of the fence he's on, and your QDM went right out the window!!!

Now, It may seem like I'm against QDM.... I'M NOT!!!
If you are a landowner, and wish to practice QDM on your own land, GO FOR IT!!!
I sincerely wish you the best of luck!!!

What I AM against... Is instituting it in the timbered mountains of the Catskills, 2 hours from NYC.
I AM against is taking this area, and instituting it as a QDM area, while the rest of the state is 1 antler 3" or longer.
They did not apply antler restrictions in western NY, where it is primarily farmland.
They also didn't apply them in the Adirondack Mountains, where it is MILES mostly timbered mountains & swamps.

SO, why the Catskills???
Because there are thousands of acres of state land... Only 2 hours north of NYC

[KentuckyWolf]

For one…baiting of or for turkey is illegal in every state.

Baiting for deer is legal throughout the southeastern states and in several midwestern states. Don’t know about the north east….never had any desire to travel that way for hunting. It’s illegal in most of the Rocky Mountain or western states.

There are some places like Texas where if you don’t bait…you might not see much, because within a few hundred yards in just about any direction you pick will be someone else’s bait pile unless you own a giant chunk of land.

QDM is biologically and ecologically sound.
I’m a certified wildlife biologist…I even teach wildlife management. There is a mountain of research, peer reviewed scientific literature, to back up QDM.

 If 6m old bucks are not to surviving to 1&1/2 and/or 1&1/2 year old bucks aren’t surviving to 2&1/2, even with antler restriction then ….what is the source of mortality?

Poor habitat quality?
Poor animal body condition going into winter?
poaching?
Harvest numbers higher than population can support?

[buckeyebowhunter]

Can anyone honestly say they've hunted a field edge and had a deer come and stand exactly where they want them to right in front of them and gnaw on food? I've hunted a lot of corn field edges in this farm country and I can say that I've rarely experienced that. Especially over some of these fields that are 20-30 acres. I can say that I've had deer zig-zag back and forth between rows, wander aimlessly out into the middle of the field with no sort of pattern or rhyme or reason. The farmers did not plant these field with any intention of helping me kill a deer, they were just kind enough to let me hunt their land.

Now, I have learned the terrain features, the wind patterns, and the trails that these deer use to enter the fields in their evening routines. I have set myself up strategically to "hopefully" place one of them in front of me where I can kill it with my recurve. And even then it rarely works out. But that's what I love, I love the chase, the learning involved. That's what I call hunting.

If you have a pile of corn out, in January here, I can GUARANTEE there will be deer on it. I can't say it's the trophy buck you're after, but you are guaranteed to have deer come to it. Can't say the same about a picked corn field that may or may not have anything left once it's been harvested in Oct or November.

Once again, I'm not knocking anyone's tactics. All of this I've been saying is based on my state of OHIO. I know some states are different, situations are different, and people are just different in the way they do things. As long as it's legal I'm okay with it to a degree. But you cannot tell me there is no obvious difference there.

[GCook]

If you'd read what I'd posted you would know I agree it is not the most challenging way to hunt.  Not everyone wants the extra challenges of the way you hunt.  Some couldn't physically handle it.  Some don't want to put out the effort.  Some it's just how they were taught by their dad or mentor. 
If you knew anything about me you'd know I hunt on land I own in Missouri and my brother's place west of Syracuse in NY.  I'm familiar with tougher ways to hunt and I find them enjoyable and when I do score those animals, regardless of weapon or season, are some of my top hunting memories. Heck, the two I took at KennyM's place in September were as big a thrill as the two animals I took in Africa just a few days before that. I feel what you are saying on it being different ways and not even in the same categories.

Like abortion or any other controversial matters, opinions are based on upbringing, environment, experience and emotion.
Is the reason I've killed one buck, which happened to be a mature buck, in 6 years of owning my property is because it's like shooting fish in a barrel?  It's not.  It's because we seldom get a mature buck in to our feeder/blind set ups and when we do they don't hang there long and getting a bow shot isn't promised.  I've yet to see one this season.  Over two months in.  But I do see lots of doe, fawn and young bucks that get a pass.
I also remember the first year I owned it and you could walked or drive all through it and maybe see one deer.  Where as now we see ten or more deer more often then not.  A lot of deer, turkey, pigs, quail, squirrel, rabbit, porcupine and birds get feed during tough times. In Missouri two bucks in twenty years of owning my place there.
I'm not saying you're wrong about it's dumbing down, so to speak, of hunters either.  It does not require all of the woodsmanship skills you use to take game.  To be successful you work hard at it and I respect that.  Though one with those skills is likely to make better decisions in placing stands in locations like natural funnels and with prevailing wind direction in mind making their feeder locations better than the less knowledge around them..  I won't lie and say all of us feeder sitters are that capable though . . . 
I'm just saying there are positive aspects of the practice.
With respect I will step out of the discussion.  Best of luck with the rest of your season.

[woodchucker]

Well said, Gary!!!

Thank you, brother...

[buckeyebowhunter]

Gary, nice post and i respect what you're saying. And agree completely with every word.

I feel as though my argument was twisted somewhat slightly in your post. If you had read my post you would know i was not debating whether or not the way i hunt is the right way or whether or not everyone is capable of hunting that way. Although i do think the woodmanship i described is very important and should be the focus for future hunting generations.

I was simply stating that hunting an agriculture field edge and a corn pile that was dumped is not the same thing. 

If you knew anything about me which you don't, i own no land and probably never will. My family never had the money and im a teacher so i don't make a ton of money and neither does my wife. I have access to a couple small parcels that also get hunted by other guys and I mainly hunt public land which you're not allowed to bait on in Ohio anyways. So i really have no choice but to use the tactics you described in your post, whether I'm physically able to or not doesn't really matter. I enjoy hunting with my Dad when we can. There will come a time when he's not physically able to hunt the way we like to, will we put out bait piles? No, probably not, but that's his choice.

Like i said at the end of the last post i made, i understand every situation is different, and everybody is different i get that. Maybe you skipped that part.  I wasn't trying to boast about my skill of hunting, cuz i don't have much lol.

It doesn't matter though, I'm happy with the way i hunt and im glad you are as well. Ultimately were on the same team. Thanks for taking time to add input to this discussion, I've really enjoyed this thread. Best of luck to you as well the rest of the season. 

[Bowguy67]

Bait, cameras and leaving stands. They all make the owner feel he owns a section of the public land. Also make an area unusable for anyone trying to be considerate or not wishing to hunt near the bait.
It should also be said,  mentioning, consideration. Just because someone suddenly “found” a spot they decided to stake a claim too doesn’t mean someone else utilizing climbers or ground sets hasn’t already found and used it for 30yrs. He’d share it Im sure but how will the other guy feel come opening morning,  after he’s done so much work, notice the climber guy already there that actually didn’t even see his set in the dark and give him the area? Most often not, he’ll sit 20 yards away in his ladder cause that’s where he laid his eggs and screw the climber guy. Yes it’s state land but who’s more likely to interfere with another’s hunt plans?

[Bowguy67]

Can anyone honestly say they've hunted a field edge and had a deer come and stand exactly where they want them to right in front of them and gnaw on food? I've hunted a lot of corn field edges in this farm country and I can say that I've rarely experienced that. Especially over some of these fields that are 20-30 acres. I can say that I've had deer zig-zag back and forth between rows, wander aimlessly out into the middle of the field with no sort of pattern or rhyme or reason. The farmers did not plant these field with any intention of helping me kill a deer, they were just kind enough to let me hunt their land.

Now, I have learned the terrain features, the wind patterns, and the trails that these deer use to enter the fields in their evening routines. I have set myself up strategically to "hopefully" place one of them in front of me where I can kill it with my recurve. And even then it rarely works out. But that's what I love, I love the chase, the learning involved. That's what I call hunting.

If you have a pile of corn out, in January here, I can GUARANTEE there will be deer on it. I can't say it's the trophy buck you're after, but you are guaranteed to have deer come to it. Can't say the same about a picked corn field that may or may not have anything left once it's been harvested in Oct or November.

Once again, I'm not knocking anyone's tactics. All of this I've been saying is based on my state of OHIO. I know some states are different, situations are different, and people are just different in the way they do things. As long as it's legal I'm okay with it to a degree. But you cannot tell me there is no obvious difference there.

Brother with complete respect. Very simple answer is yes and 100s of times yes. Over 40 years of regular yes. You need to play the wind, focus on preferred food sources and it’ll pretty easily happen. I live in heavier hunted areas and can’t imagine someone not having this happen regular at least early season until pressure gets them. Most of it from sloppy hunt techniques of others.
Now if something is GUARANTEED its prob not very sporting in my eyes.

[buckeyebowhunter]

Another thought that's been on my mind is why is baiting for Turkey unacceptable? As long as the population is strong why is it any different than deer?

[buckeyebowhunter]

Bait, cameras and leaving stands. They all make the owner feel he owns a section of the public land. Also make an area unusable for anyone trying to be considerate or not wishing to hunt near the bait.
It should also be said,  mentioning, consideration. Just because someone suddenly “found” a spot they decided to stake a claim too doesn’t mean someone else utilizing climbers or ground sets hasn’t already found and used it for 30yrs. He’d share it Im sure but how will the other guy feel come opening morning,  after he’s done so much work, notice the climber guy already there that actually didn’t even see his set in the dark and give him the area? Most often not, he’ll sit 20 yards away in his ladder cause that’s where he laid his eggs and screw the climber guy. Yes it’s state land but who’s more likely to interfere with another’s hunt plans?

Dude yes 100%

[Over&Under]

Another thought that's been on my mind is why is baiting for Turkey unacceptable? As long as the population is strong why is it any different than deer?

I’d like to clear up my posts as well…and your post buckeye will help

It may very well have sounded like I am advocating for baiting and think baiting is on par with other methods of hunting…and that’s not the case
Baiting definitely gives some advantages…not guarantees but advantages

All I’m saying is I wish that baiting was not so species specific… And I wish that baiting wasn’t viewed in such a negative light for other species. I don’t believe that baiting should be allowed all day every day, but I do believe that if you’re allowed to bait for hogs, Whitetail deer and exotics, you should be able to bait for all other species and not be viewed as a sub-par hunter simply because you’re using that tactic on a species that traditionally hasn’t been hunted using bait…like Turkey, mule deer, elk, etc.

You mentioned something earlier about some animals like bears being allowed to hunt over bait, because of how difficult or nearly impossible it is for them to be killed with a bow without the use of bait… If that was the case, then why can’t you bait for rocky mountain bighorn sheep, dall sheep, moose or other species, who can be nearly impossible to get with a bow and are once in a lifetime hunts in some states…imagine what people would say if you killed a bighorn sheep over bait… you would be crucified out of the hunting community :-)

Why one animal is viewed as a lower form of species than another thereby allowing for the use of bait I don’t agree with…

Again, I’m not saying that bait is my preferred method, or that bait is on the same level as other forms of hunting, but if you can spend thousands of dollars on a man-made bait pile, (food plot) or kill a bear over a pile of donuts… and in either case be congratulated for your accomplishment, then you should also be congratulated for killing any other species over bait.

It sounds weird to say that but that’s because as a society we have set the standard of what animals are worthy or (less worthy) thus allowing for bait

Past generations may have used bait I have no idea, but they were providing for their families and filling the freezer so to speak they didn’t care about how big a Deers rack was… I doubt they would have frowned upon a bait pile if it meant meat for their family… in today’s society there’s still many of us who at times, are simply filling the freezer…the use of bait should be an acceptable method if all you’re doing is putting meat in the freezer… similar to eating a beef cow… We fatten up beef cows simply to shoot them in the head with a 22 caliber activated device… And nobody has a problem doing it or eating the meat afterward, and they are just animals like the animals we hunt:)

Again, I’m all for the skill and woodsmanship required to outsmart a wild game animal with a traditional bow… it’s one of my favorite things to do in life, and I’ve done it successfully for over 20 years, without the use of bait (with the exception of bears and hogs) but there are some tags that I’ve had, and  it would’ve been nice to use bait simply to fill the freezer:)