Bareshaft help

[JR Chambers]

I am trying to grasp this bare shaft thing. My bareshafts hit down the middle on the vertical line and my fletched shafts hit left 4 inches. Using 50 grain inserts with 125 grain heads. Makes no sense. Thanks guys

[McDave]

As you observe your bare shafts in flight, does the nock end seem to veer left, right, high, or low, or does it track directly behind the point?

And do you shoot a right or a left handed bow?

[Roy from Pa]

https://www.fenderarchery.com/blogs/archery-info/basic-tuning

You want your bare shafts to group with the fletched shafts. If you are right handed then your arrows are too weak and if you are left handed then your arrows are too stiff. Another possibility is the arrow knock is hitting the bow when you shoot giving you a false reading.

What weight is your bow and what spine arrows are you shooting?

[JR Chambers]

But If I do the same thing to both shafts as recommended the bare shafts comes back to the left after shortening and the fletched shafts keep going further to the left. Why can't I just get the bare shafts shooting down the middle and then put feathers on them?

[JR Chambers]

My bow is 45 pounds. I am shooting 600 Easton axis shafts.

[McDave]

If you are using a true bare shaft, putting feathers on will stiffen up the shaft, possibly enough to move the POI of the feathered shaft 4” to the left.  What I do instead of shooting a true bare shaft is to trim the feathers off a fletched shaft, leaving the quill and the glue.  This gives a better indication.  Some people wrap the nock end of the shaft with enough electrical tape to exactly offset the weight of the feathers and the glue, which is probably even more accurate that what I do.

Another possibility is that you have quill contact with your riser, kicking the arrow off to the left a little.  Try rotating your nock a little at a time and see if that changes the POI any.

I agree, once you get the bare shaft to fly straight, your tuning is over and any further corrections should be made to the fletched arrow.

[JR Chambers]

Thanks guys

[Firstlight]

When I bare shaft I want them to impact slightly weak, a few inches to the right (I’m right handed) because with fletch I know they stiffen up and will move to where the fletched are grouping.

Some people bare shaft w/ the quill on or tape to add weight equivalent to the weight of the fletch. 

[Wolfie2nd]

Hey JR, the best way to see what your bareshaft is doing is to get a luminock on it and shoot at a bail in the dark starting close and work your way back. That illuminated nock in the dark tells all. You can get a 6 pack of cheapies off Amazon for like 15$ at most. Good luck

[Vroomvroom]

Hello, this is my first reply in this site.  I don’t mean to hijack this thread.  I started bareshaft tuning an arrow today.  But it’s minus 17 celcius , backyard is down grade.  Small 18” square “ block” target.  So I might stop until better weather and more suitable place to shoot.  But, I will ask for similar advice of this thread .  Initially when I bought my Martin savannah the shop gave me traditional only arrows which weighed about 447 total grains for my 55 lbs bow. Just over 8 gr per lb.  After some time and reading too much, I was concerned maybe I should be shooting a heavier arrow.   I’d like to tinker as I always loved archery so I bought some gold tip trad arrows of 9.3 gpi over the 9.1.   I got heavier 50 grain inserts that I can add weight down through the knock end.   I added 30 grains to the 50 gr insert.  I’m shootings the same 125 heads.   The shafts are 400 spine, similar to the traditional only arrows.  I got arrow wraps on the back, 12 gr Easton nocks.  No feathers.   I cut the shafts a few times as I could see nock left.  But once or twice I saw a mock right. And then I missed the block target at 16 yards to the left.  It definently could be poor form as I hadn’t shot the bow in few years. Life you know.    I believe I’m only drawing 53 lbs.  I’m 5’9” but marking an arrow as I drew, I think I’m only drawing 26.25” anchored to corner of my mouth, three under.   My question, will bareshaft always go Nock left, regardless of distance if it’s weak? Or will the arrow in its fishtailing sometimes show a nock right. Even if it’s still weak?   It is about half an inch longer than my older arrows but with a much heavier 50 gr insert and 30 gr fact weight added.  You would think it’s still weak.

[McDave]

“I got heavier 50 grain inserts that I can add weight down through the knock end.”

I may be misunderstanding your comment above, and I know it is possible to add weight to the nock end of GT arrows, but it is not a good idea to add any substantial amount of weight to the nock end because it can result in an arrow that is unstable.  Maybe 20-30 grains to fine tune, but you can get that much weight by adding the nock adapter without any supplemental weights.  Adding weight to the nock end stiffens the arrow spine, while adding weight to the point end weakens the arrow spine.

I recommend doing the majority of your tuning on the point end, by adding/subtracting weight and length.  Given what you said, your goal should be to arrive at an arrow weight of approx 9 gpp, or about 480 grains total arrow weight, if your actual draw weight is about 53#.

I think you should be able to get there by using a .500 spine GT trad arrow with a 145-150 grain point or broadhead, plus 20-50 grains of internal weights on the point end. GT offers supplemental weights that screw into the back of the point inserts and can be stacked in 20 and 50 grain increments.  These are commonly used with the standard 12ish grain aluminum insert, but heavier inserts are possible, if you choose to go that route.  I would start with the arrow cut to 30”, and you can stiffen the arrow spine by cutting 1/4” off at a time, if needed.  If your DL is less than 27”, you could cut the arrow down to 28”, if needed, but you probably won't need to cut that much off if you're using about 200 grains weight up front, in a combination of point, insert, and supplemental weights.  I wouldn't recommend cutting the arrow any shorter than 28”, regardless of your DL, because I think it results in erratic arrow flight, but that is just my personal opinion.

If at some point you want to increase the front end weight much beyond 200 grains, you may need to switch to .400 spine shafts, but I think you'd be happier with something more moderate to start with.

There are two ways you can get a nock left bare shaft indication:  your arrow may actually be too weak, or you may be getting a false weak reading.  I assume you are a RH shooter?

A false weak occurs when the shaft is way too stiff and recoils off the strike plate to show a nock left orientation.  The way to avoid a false weak is to start with a bare shaft that you know will be weak and tune from there.  If you are truly pulling 53#, starting with a .500 spine bare shaft cut to 30” and 200 grains of weight up front should give you a true weak nock left indication.

[Vroomvroom]

Yes. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yes, I can add weights to he point end by removing the nock and slide the weights up to the point end and screwing them into the back of the inserts.  I hope to get a chance today or tomorrow and take a few shots again.  I was getting nock low and to the left. Though I did get one or two nock rights.  I think it was inconsistency.    My other question is, is 15 yards enough to complete a bare shaft tune? I also only have one brass mock point on my string and not two.  I shoot three under.  These are gold tip traditionals. 9.3 gpi with 50 gr inserts and 30 grains added weight.  Wraps and Easton nock.   It still half inch longer than previous arrows I had that had light insert and were 9.1 gpi.  Both shooting 125 gr heads

[McDave]

Oh, I see, you're adding weight to the front but inserting the weights from the back.  That's fine.

15 yards is fine for bare shaft tuning.  I do most of my tuning from 10 yards.  Some people, myself included, will shoot a bare shaft that is well tuned from further distances, but I think that's mostly just curiosity.  My bare shafts were all made from fletched arrows with the feathers trimmed back to the quill, as I believe having the weight of the quill and glue gives a better bare shaft indication than a completely bare shaft.  But the tradeoff is that the quills and glue do control the semi-bare shaft to the extent that it straightens up after 10-15 yards anyway, so for me, bare shaft tuning is not really useful beyond 10-15 yards.

[Vroomvroom]

Thanks.  That’s a good help

[Vroomvroom]

I’m hoping being a same spine, albeit heavier gpi, than previous arrows, that they’re still weak.   They are still longer than the previous arrows by half an inch with a lot more point weight.   I must have four or so inches to get back as far as the riser.  I can take the weights off the insert if it’s still showing weak by then.   

[Vroomvroom]

I’ve only taken naybe 40 shots after working all day to see where my arrow was bareshaft.  First it seemed too stiff!   I was scared I cut too much off.  But it is still longer than my older arrows and with a lot extra weight vs the old.    So I added 20 gr to the back of the insert.   Of course it was getting dark. And I’ll shoot it few dozen more times but it seems the arrow flairs pretty straight.   Though I’m only about ten yards.   I’ll back up more tomorrow after I get an extra target so I don’t stick an arrow in the gf’s shed door again.    These shafts are gold tip traditionals 400 spine.  But I have 125 gr head and 100 gr insert.  It’s 9.3 gpi.  With wrap and nock it’s weighing 540 gr.  No feathers.     It’s hard for me to believe it’s not too weak yet.    Two questions, how much will adding feathers stiffen it up?  And my F.O.C. from what I calculated is 18.5%.   On the high end.  What are your thoughts on it being that high?   I may fletch an arrow now to compare.  But I’d almost like go take another shaft. Don’t cut him quite as short and shed some point weight to compare.  This is a 55# Martin savannah.    Brace height, I thought was higher, I’d currently 6-13/16s to Center of string to deepest part of handle.

[McDave]

As I mentioned in my earlier post, .400 spine may well be too stiff for your setup.  I would try .500 spine instead, starting with a 30” shaft and a 145-150 grain point, plus whatever supplemental weight you want behind the insert.  I'm sure that will show bareshaft weak, but that's where you want to start.  My guess would be that you will be in tune with an arrow in the 28”-29” range, and 150-200 grains of point weight, but you need to determine that with your own bareshaft testing.

The recommended brace height for a Martin Savannah is 6.5”-7.5”, so you are in the middle of the range, which should be fine.

Recommended FOC is 10%-20%.  The EFOC folks like to have an even higher FOC than that.  I would be more concerned if you were closer to the bottom of the recommended range than the top.

Adding feathers stiffens the shaft slightly, so most folks tune for a slightly weak bare shaft, maybe 5* nock left for a RH shooter with a completely bare shaft.  Other people would say that we are splitting hairs to worry about the effect of feathers on tuning.  But we do it because we can, and I have never seen anything wrong with being too precise.

Adding weight to the back of the insert does not affect dynamic spine as much as increasing point weight does.  I know you can stack GT weights, but once you get further back than the length of a 50 grain weight, you are increasing overall weight without much effect on spine.

[Vroomvroom]

Yes thanks.  It’s funny you write this now.  I was just fletching some arrows.  I’m not that consistent,  I think, but I started to think that these gt traditionals are stiff vs the last shafts. They are 9.3gr vs the old 9.1.  But right now I’m settling on 125 gr tip, 50-70 gr insert weight. But the arrows are still a lot longer than my draw.  One day I tried the card trick, and I’m only showing about 26.5” draw.  I’m 5’9”. Maybe even 5’10”. 195 lbs.  but these arrows are about 31.75” from throat of nock to end of insert. That doesn’t include the head.    I know most like to keep the arrow shorter.    Though I don’t like the thought of a broadhead being an inch from my hands, there’s no doubt these are long.  Might have to take a pho to side on in full draw just to see myself.

[Vroomvroom]

My old ones were 400s. And I remember looking at a chart one time showing I was on boundary of a higher spine. But not sure what I was looking at, because this morning I saw some gt traditional spine chart and for 50-55 lb recurrve , I’m in middle of 500 range.

[McDave]

Don't confuse gpp with gpi. The GT trads have a higher gpi (grains per inch) because of the weight of the wood grain coating. This only affects overall arrow weight, not spine. GT trads are preferred by people who don't mind a little more arrow weight, and are not the first choice for those who want to keep overall arrow weight down, or who want to keep the weight front-loaded.

Gpp refers to grains per pound. This is of more concern to those who want to keep overall arrow weight down. Gpi is a constant, and is often printed on the side of the arrow. Gpp (arrow weight/actual bow weight at the user's draw length) must be separately calculated by each archer, and so is not published. Bowyers normally specify a minimum gpp that can be used with their bows without voiding the warranty. Often the minimum gpp is 8.