What’s up with this YT clip? Hunting Setup doubting…..

[JohnnyBa]

This shows an archer shooting through a pumpkin, pretty close yardage, with two bows of different draw weights while using light/heavy arrows. The lighter bow is 50# and shooting a 530gn arrow while the other bow is stronger using a heavier arrow. Both had broadhead. The 45# Bear Kodiak, the lighter draw, did not get a pass through. Am I thinking this is a bad test or is a 45# bow not going to get the pass throughs on animals like numerous YouTubers show? This sort of throws a kink in my thinking that 45# was an ample hunting weight for deer, Turkey and maybe a pig.

[kevsuperg]

Deer ain't made outta pumpkin.
 

[durp]

A few thing there...arrows don't use knock power to down game or take them out via pass through !!!  While pass through are nice for tracking its not a measure of how fast or if an animal will die...blood loss kills!!! For example, cut ur wrist and see if ya die   

Putting the arrow in the right spot, sharp broadheads and well tuned bows should be ur goal 

[Terry Green]

"A heavier arrow going faster". Common sense and physics. Pretty obvious. 

I learned that when I was 8 years old.

[Orion]

Yes, we would always expect a heavier arrow going faster to penetrate more than a lighter arrow.  I think the broad head also contributed to the difference.  As best I could tell from the pictures, the lighter arrow had a wider and open broad head, (and I think small bleeders, making it a 4-blade head) cutting a wider swath, but prone to clogging as it spins through. The heavier arrow had a solid, slimmer head. Also, the lighter was a double bevel and the heavier was a single bevel  With the same head on each arrow, I think the results would have been a bit closer. I.e., the lighter arrow would have cleared the pumpkin as well.  Too, we know nothing of the relative sharpness of the heads. Regardless, the head on the lighter arrow made it through the pumpkin and would make it through any deer size critters just as easily.

[Terry Green]

Yes, my comment was based on all else being equal.

However, I totally disagree with wider heads clogging.

I've been on way too many blood trails from group hunts and leases for over 20 years and have followed so many blood trails of mine and of other people. There's no way I'll ever be convinced of that.

This to the point that there will be no narrow 2 blades allowed at the Laredo Tusk Roundups next year.  Way too many animals continuing to be lost with those narrow heads.

[Mike Bolin]

The broadhead from the Bear appeared to me to be a "vented" broadhead. If that is the case, I would guess that the vents/slots could clog some and impede penetration. Another thing that I noticed was that the arrow shot from the Bear looked as if it deflected slightly on the first arrow. If I am correct, that too, would impede penetration. I think a better test would have been shooting the same broadhead from each bow and shooting a heavier arrow from the Bear.
While appreciate the effort that the gentleman went to, there are some variables that have been mentioned before that need to be accounted for.
Due to shoulder issues, I have dropped my bow weight to 43# at my draw. I shoot a 500-grain arrow with a 3 blade VPA and have killed 3 deer with this set up. Pass throughs on all 3 and 2 were shot with the same arrow/broadhead.

[Orion]

Terry.  As Mike pointed out, it's not the width of the broad head that causes the clogging, it's the venting.  But, all other things equal, a wider head won't penetrate as well as a narrower one.  I agree that because the narrower head cuts less tissue, it's likely to leave a sparcer blood trail than a wider head.  Never a free lunch.  Maximize one aspect of a broad head and lose something somewhere else. 

[Terry Green]

Orion, is there a test that proves vents clog?

 "But, all other things equal, a wider head won't penetrate as well as a narrower one."  I don't have problems penetrating animals, with multi blades or wide heads, and neither do those I that I've hunted with with such heads.  Unless I peg the off shoulder/leg bone, which in that case the animal is dead in short order, pass throughs are a cinch.  Now I have to admit, I never did measure that old adage of how much dirt I penetrated after the pass through.  I have a hard time figuring out how so many have trouble penetrating animals, or are scared to death that they aren't.

"Never a free lunch"... on most hunts I've been on those that use narrow heads don't get lunch very often, but the coyotes do. 

"Maximize one aspect of a broad head and lose something somewhere else."

Yes, that why I maximize my chances since 90% of the time animals take a step forward rather than backward.  My broadhead choice maximizes my chances dramatically, as has an overwhelming number of hunters that make the same choice as I whice I experience 1st hand. Now what do I lose? The very slim chance of the animal stepping backward and hitting the ball joint.  Which BTW a narrow 2 blade doesn't guarantee success on those hits either. 

I have also found solidly that pass throughs on ground angles, rather than shots from an elevated position, are the true test for both a quick death and blood on the ground depending on the head.

My test are not from propped up dead animals, but living-breathing-bleeding animals that can move while the arrow is in route, either naturally or in fear, and are no doubt about to carry the mail wide open.

Shot placement seems to be an argument way too often that isn't really relevant a lot of the time.  It's up to all of us to be the best shots we can be, and take high percentage shots.  However, shot placement is NOT always up to us.  The animals will dictate that very often.  You shot can be dead on when you release, yet at that point you are not in control of the arrow anymore.  Hence my head choice based on all of the above.

I also have some comments on the vented heads 'clogging', but want to know if there is a test available other than my own real life ones.

Great discussion guys....... 

[JohnnyBa]

I sure appreciate the thoughts and the time it takes for these inputs. Here is/are/was/were my thoughts on the thing, and this is coming from a guy that does not have the archery experience but tend to TRY and use my internal BS meter on this stuff. I am learning though. I just thought, that these arrows and bow draw weights were similar enough to get the same pass through result on a frigging pumpkin, that’s all. As far as I know, the pumpkin has probably an inch thick flesh surrounding a seedy, stringy mess of an inside. Again, in my beginners mind, a broadhead mounted on an arrow weighing 530grains shot at 150-ish FPS, 12’from the pumpkin “should”have gone through, no problem. Just like the arrow weighing just 70 grains more going just 70 fps faster did. All things as they stand by the video, I just thought the shortish distance from target would have overcome any pumpkin issues, any broadhead type issues, or even a dirty release from the shooter, and got a pass through on both. Yes, I get speed and arrow weight play a HUGE roll in it all, but I thought the shorter distance would have eliminated anything but a pass through. In my mind, a blunt would have gotten a pass through out of both bows. Oh well, something to keep thinking about, but until then, I guess I need to get me some fresh fruit and shoot it to see if my 45# equipment will even kill a darn melon.

[Terry Green]

"Oh well, something to keep thinking about, but until then, I guess I need to get me some fresh fruit and shoot it to see if my 45# equipment will even kill a darn melon."

Too funny Johnny!!!.... Start with a dozen pistachio muffins. 

Don't worry Johnny, its just a guy shooting a pumpkin in the dark.  We have no idea in all the variables, hardly a test.  From your arrow flight that I saw in person, you shouldn't have any problem killing a deer.

How's the accuracy going btw?

[JohnnyBa]

“How's the accuracy going btw?”

All is acceptable and getting a bit better. Just really working on being repeatable but the only thing I can for sure “repeat” is a bad shot! Love the new bow and just working on it all while watching vids and confusing myself the rest of the time.

[Terry Green]

Are you still shooting 5 arrows in a row?  If so, stop and 4.  Its just a concentration breakdown on trying to shoot a group.  Also, try taking a judo outside the fence and shoot random targets on arrow at a time.

Pine cone, bright leaf on the ground, new green sprig popping up, mushroom, etc...

Shoot on shot, go pick it up, and pick another target.

Stay after it!!!

[Kyle85]

Don't believe that pumpkin science! This is all you gotta know: https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=101178.0

[Orion]

Terry:  I'm not advocating for one style/size of blade over another, just trying to point out why the OP may not have gotten the penetration he was expecting with the lighter bow/arrow combination.  In short, the broad head on the heavier set up is a more efficient design for penetration. Of course we would always expect the heavier, faster arrow to penetrate better, but a more efficient design on the lighter combo likely would have increased its penetration a little more as well.

Regarding the vents getting clogged, I not aware of any solid tests that substantiate the idea that it reduces penetration, but I've seen first hand and in pictures, meat clinging to the vented areas on blades.  How much that may impede penetration (or not) is anyone's guess, but it's another factor to consider. 

[Kirkll]

“ This to the point that there will be no narrow 2 blades allowed at the Laredo Tusk Roundups next year.  Way too many animals continuing to be lost with those narrow heads.“

Hey Terry,
With this statement being made, could you define a “Narrow two blade” head for us?

 I purchased some single bevel broad-heads  that are 3:1 that are an inch wide at the base primarily for pig hunting and elk hunting too. I’ve also hunted with the 3 blade woodsman that are 3:1 with good results.

Do you think these are too narrow?  Lord knows you’ve killed more hogs than I have by a long shot…..   I’m just curious….   Kirk

[Terry Green]

No worries Orion.... just posing my findings....

Here's my tests over the years for vented heads.....

As most that know me I've killed 90% of my animals since the days of the 'Old Blue' Zwickey Deltas have been with their 4 Blades, but I have taken several animals that are notable for not worrying about vented heads 'dragging'.....

Thickest shielded board I've ever killed - Wide Ace Super Express, wide and vented.

CLICK HERE FOR THICK SHIELD AND SHOT PLACEMENT INFO 

Largest Whitetail, 259 on the hoof Booner - Zephyr Sasquatch, wide and vented, busted 2 ribs going in and 1 going out.

Deer - Snuffer, wide and vented 3 blade.

Black Bear, shot 70ft up an oak through the sternum and out the top of the back on right side of spine - Silver Flame Custom XL, wide and vented.

2nd Largest deer I ever killed "Freak Buck" - Also,  Silver Flame Custom XL

2000#+ American Bison buried to the fletch and numerous other large thick shielded hogs blown through - Wensel Woodsman, vented 3 blade.

Based on those animals and experiences, I wouldn't worry one iota about shooting vented heads.

[Terry Green]

I didn't mean to skip over ya Kirk..... I was busy typing that just below you....

Give me a bit....

[Mike Bolin]

I have no issues with a vented head. My thought was that the inside of a pumpkin is not the same consistency as a deer and that the wider, vented head might cause some penetration issues. The one thing that I have decided without a doubt is that next pumpkin hunting season I am definitely using a narrow single bevel head!

[Terry Green]

Mike..... from Punkin Seasons Past.....