What’s up with this YT clip? Hunting Setup doubting…..

[Terry Green]

OK Kirk, you can shoot what ever head you want and choose one for the job at hand.  I just have to live with myself and make sure that we recover every animal we can, and make sure that those coming the 2nd week have as good a chance at the 1st group.  I'm not going to get into numbers, but its enough for me to make that decision.

On the LTR, and many other 'ground hunting' hunts for hogs and javelina produce non low angle exit wounds, therefore you need to use a wide or multi blade head to put more blood on the ground.  People can argue all they want, but again, been seeing this pattern for over 20 years on well over 100 tracks, probably closer to over  200.  85% of the javies brought in on the 2 hunts earlier this year were done so with multi blades.  About the same at the last 3 hunts as well.

One other thing that is constant also that you wont hear about but from others that have had the same experiences as me is that these ground level shots leave 3 times the blood clots inside the cavity than elevated shot due to not draining no matter the animal.

I don't think I ever got any pics of the blood clots left at the skinning pole from an average size ground shot javie but they are larger than what's left over from an  average elevated deer shot.

I hope that makes sense.  Not trying to deter you from what you want to use, or need to use, just some food for thought.

[Cory Mattson]

OK Kirk, you can shoot what ever head you want and choose one for the job at hand.  I just have to live with myself and make sure that we recover every animal we can, and make sure that those coming the 2nd week have as good a chance at the 1st group.  I'm not going to get into numbers, but its enough for me to make that decision.

On the LTR, and many other 'ground hunting' hunts for hogs and javelina produce non low angle exit wounds, therefore you need to use a wide or multi blade head to put more blood on the ground.  People can argue all they want, but again, been seeing this pattern for over 20 years on well over 100 tracks, probably closer to over  200.  85% of the javies brought in on the 2 hunts earlier this year were done so with multi blades.  About the same at the last 3 hunts as well.

One other thing that is constant also that you wont hear about but from others that have had the same experiences as me is that these ground level shots leave 3 times the blood clots inside the cavity than elevated shot due to not draining no matter the animal.

I don't think I ever got any pics of the blood clots left at the skinning pole from an average size ground shot javie but they are larger than what's left over from an  average elevated deer shot.

I hope that makes sense.  Not trying to deter you from what you want to use, or need to use, just some food for thought.

Interesting stuff
We had a many years stretch on Texas ranches
And now over three decades on GA and FL huge leases
Talking hogs specifically we’ve seen that for hunters who are hog hunting as a non resident fail to recover 50%. Plenty of guys the recovery rate is worse.
Small flat blades are commonly used. I think because the 3:1 design was promoted so much in the early days.
I got to the point on two of our projects; the SRBZ and our Saltwater marsh hogs I no longer allowed them. Sharks were the preferred flat blade we use and promote. We liked a Journeyman as second best. A 3 blade will work but almost nobody can get them sharp enough for us to allow. 4 blades easy to get sharp and deadly every day.
There are exceptions of course.
Shot placement is key and we shouldn’t have to mention it.
Our recovery is over 95% with years running sometimes 100%.
Do what we tell you and you go home with hogs.
I find the low recovery rates on hogs for bow hunters unacceptable.

[Terry Green]

Yeah Cory, back during the early days of Tradgang from the TX Sweats to the early era of the Solana Ranch hunts this was not a problem.  I distinctly remember a guy showing up at Solana with the 'hook line and sinker'.  It was ugly.  I hoped that line of trance would not progress, but it did.

et all...

I want to make sure that when I said ......

"I just have to live with myself and make sure that we recover every animal we can, and make sure that those coming the 2nd week have as good a chance at the 1st group." That this 2nd group also implied the 2nd group of non Tradgang hunters that showed up after us.  The outfitter hunts a property 1 week and then a week off, so after our 2nd week, there will be another group after us.  They also should have a great hunt, and the outfitter needs to be protected.  I feel it's my duty running these hunts to do the best I can for everyone involved, including the animals.

So, that comment was not intended for anything that just happened on week one of this year, but something that's been going on for the last 5  years of LTR.

Oh, and Kirk.... 2 blades are going to need to be 1.25 wide minimum.  And WWs are fine as they are multi blades.  But they do need to be sharpened properly.... which throws this back to Cory....

Again Cory, correct on the 3 blades 'of old'.  When you laid them on a counter you could see light underneath the blade as they were slightly concave. I used a belt sander to level them out....no worries. Now there are 3 blade heads out there that are a breeze to sharpen. Most of the kills on the LTRs are mostly VPAs. Simmons would be a great choice also along with Centaurs for 2 blades.  Heck, the Z Delta 2 would be fabulous for javies all day long.  Abowyer has several weights available in wider heads.....

I think those that "see what they've been missing" will be happy next year. 

[Bamboozle]

I'm thankful for the video now, as it lead to all this.  Decades of effort shared. I think I'll go get another cup of Backwoods and enjoy another hour of my morning here. Thanks to all that have help this site along for so long. 

[Jim Jackson]

A few thing there...arrows don't use knock power to down game or take them out via pass through !!!  While pass through are nice for tracking its not a measure of how fast or if an animal will die...blood loss kills!!

Huh? Don't take them out via pass through?  Not a measure of how fast an animal will die?  What's going on here?

The fastest way for an animal to die is to PASS TROUGH both lungs. It's also not 'blood loss' as much as it is oxygen loss.  If you pass though both lungs you wont need blood to track.  I'm glad to see threads like this straightening out some of the misnomers as like posted on that other thread. 

[Kirkll]

Well it’s certainly hard to argue with that much experience and statistics.

 The only thing I’ve personally experienced on hogs shot with a single bevel 3:1 vs a 3 blade is that neither one of them penetrate very well unless you get behind that shoulder properly, and the 3 blade heads left a better blood trail. Never ceases to amaze me how quickly those things can move.

Those pigs can be pretty tough to kill at times.

I’ll never forget a shot I took at about 7 yards with 57# bow and hit a 200# boar broadside right dead in the shoulder blade as he walked in front of me……he stopped short the moment I released……  It literally took the boar right off his feet with the impact.

That boar rolled once , and was back on his feet instantly after snapping off the arrow, and never left a drop of blood…. Nothing but grease on the arrow, and he took the broad head with him.

I saw the same boar two days later walking around like nothing had happened…, Amazing….      Tough animals…. Kirk

[Terry Green]

Yeah Kirk, they can take shoulder joint hits like you hit them with a pea shooter.  We had a hammer on film at Solana that actually DID take a step back as I released, and got his joint stobbed. Rob Burnam was filming. I swear I heard him laughing it off in the brush.  We saw him the next day fine and dandy, but he wouldn't come in.... too smart.

BTW, you mentioned WWs and elk, what are your bow and arrow specs?

[Terry Green]

Ah.....

"The fastest way for an animal to die is to PASS TROUGH both lungs. It's also not 'blood loss' as much as it is oxygen loss.  If you pass though both lungs you wont need blood to track."

Yes, absolutely.  And, this brings me back to Simmons, Jerry Simmons.  He stated that the reason he developed the Simmons concave style head is that when hog hunting "I want to let the air out of them right now."  What's cool about those style of heads is they create a wider slash than the head is wide due to the outward push on the way through.

[pdk25]

Never get freaked out by a YouTube video shooting fruit, lol.

Don't lump all 45# bows together, either.  Different draw lengths and bow styles makes a huge difference. 

Skinny 2 blades penetrate the best, all things being equal, but it is the rare situation where that is the difference maker.  Know your quarry.  If you are worried about penetration on a javelina, and to a large extent deer,  you may be tempted to address that issue at the expense of other issues.  I child's bow will almost always get  adequate penetration on these animals, but you will be more likely to recover them with better blood on the ground with a larger broadhead.  I know, some people worry about hitting heavy bone, but the vast majority of time, if you do, your trajectory for the vitals is not good anyway.

Hogs are a different matter, but Robert Carter has killed a gazillian with lightweight bows.  Yes, he doesn't use larger heads and is selective in his choice of shots.  For me, this is one of the best arguments for using a slightly more energetic setup.  Having the ability to penetrate a large boar with a decent size 3 blade of 4 blade and put enough blood on the ground for a quick blood trail, especially in the summer.   With marginal poundage, you probably will want to go with a 2 blade, but I still wouldn't choose a skinny broadhead for penetration sake.  Just my opinion.  I have stuck quite a few.

And please, if you can only accurately shoot 45#, don't let if stop you from hunting pigs.  It is the very rare pig that will give you problems with that poundage. 



This is a hog that I killed with a 1950’s Paul Bunyan Recurve.  47# or so.  The only hog that I short with a skinny 2 blade, due to the bow that I was using.


https://youtube.com/shorts/bpFw7o_iynM?feature=share

[Terry Green]

"Never get freaked out by a YouTube video shooting fruit, lol"

Too funny Patrick.

I love Johnny's quest to perfect what he's enjoying.  I'm trying to keep the monsters at bay and not let them into his head.  Hopefully I'll get back up there soon for another visit.

[Terry Green]

Oh, and here's my last 2 kills.  Most who know me know that I've been hunting with 60 to 70# bows for ever, and I still do.  As I am getting older I am gearing up with a couple of lighter weight bows, AND making them take downs so I don't have to pay the airlines for another bag.

Both with Zwickey 4 Blades....

50#@28 Centaur blew threw both shoulder blades on a javie, James "Kodiak Fan" Veldhaus was with me on the recovery and skinning pole. This was the entry shoulder...

And I passed through this porker.  PDK was with me on this one....

So yeah, don't let anything in the garden frighten ya!!!
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[Terry Green]

Johnny, just to ease your mind a bit.....

This is the 7th yard from the hog above....

And this is the head I used last year to kill one of my javies.... This head is also vented and it like to have cut him in half and blew through like nobodies business...

I wish everyone could hunt these little demons.  They will teach you a lot and make you a better hunter in 5 days than it would take you 5 years otherwise.

Meet Psycho....

[Stringwacker]

I've been reading the thread enjoying the discussion...especially the broadhead thoughts. I'm a broadhead nut of sorts.

Regarding the video, it is what it is. Someone pointed out early on that pumpkins aren't deer. But...for the sake of argument IF pumpkins were deer, both pumpkins are dead and in the frying pan. There's nothing wrong with how the lighter bow/arrow performed as both bows shot the broadhead completely through. My son starting at age 11 shot 9 straight animals (one of these was a 125 pound pig) with his 33 pound Ben Pearson bow that he pulled 21" and with a two blade Eskimo light (1 1/16") before his first failed recovery

I would venture to guess that about as many, if not more, animals have been shot and recovered with broadheads that stayed within the body cavity than complete pass throughs with stickbows. I hunt historically in river basins where the timber tends to be more open. In this situation, I believe blood trails often are overrated as I can see them fall...or hear them 'thump' as they tip over of the ground. I have about 150  self-instances of reference to pull from.

Broadheads selection is very personal. Broadheads are often selected for tunability, bow poundage, looks, price, size, ease of sharpening and a million other reasons. My own choice with rare exception (turkeys!) has always been 1 1/8" two edge heads (usually Eskimo's, Razorheads, or Stingers). I've only killed about 10 hogs with these so my sample size is fairly small...but they worked with ease. My last boar was 245 pounds and I shot him with a 510 grain arrow, Bear Razorhead out of a  52 lb bow at 27" and I got a complete pass through at 14 yards. He went less than 50 yards.

Recovery is all about shot placement and how sharp your arrow is out of a well tuned setup. Bad shots lead to bad recoveries. Bigger broadheads can help in some instances; but at best oversized broadheads are more like a bandage...rather than a solution.

Of course your results may vary from my own. I just know what works for me.

[PrimitivePete]

I need to ask one question that for me is the money question, how sharp was each broadhead used in the test ?

[Terry Green]

 "Recovery is all about shot placement and how sharp your arrow is out of a well tuned setup. Bad shots lead to bad recoveries. Bigger broadheads can help in some instances; but at best oversized broadheads are more like a bandage...rather than a solution.."

OK, let's run with your logic.

If that is the case, and shot placement is so important and you somehow think animals never move,  then ALL broadheads are a bandages, including yours, so we can all use field points now. Oh, and animals never move.

 

AND, with all the javies lost to narrow 2 blades the last 5 years in Laredo, those shooting them might as well have been shooting field points. 

[Stringwacker]

Oversized broadheads have one advantage. When shot with sufficient energy where a pass through occurs, they more often than not produce heavier blood trails. That in itself in cutover, marshes, etc wherever the terrain hinders recovery can be a big asset.

That said, we all know that good shot placement and a sharp broadhead results in recovery. If your depending on large broadheads to overcome bad shot placement, all your doing is hoping for an anatomical miracle. It happens sometimes but I wouldn't go to the bank with that thought.

I've shot quite a few of those javelina myself. They die with those narrow two blades just like they did with the snuffers.

I'm sure the question might be to some, what's the harm in always using a large head...just in case? Nothing. If you have the energy and you shoot accurately with it. However, advocating large broadheads to those that don't have the energy creates a few problems itself. We all don't carry the same equipment to the field.

[Terry Green]

"They die with those narrow two blades just like they did with the snuffers."

Not.

85% of all javies brought in were with multi blades.  Over 30 have been lost with narrow 2 blades.

Pardon me now, I have to go throw  away all my 30.06s and polish up my 22s.  Gun season will be here before you know it.

[F. Dobbs]

Thanks for the pictures.  I'm now even more confident with my set up with my VPAs. 

[JohnnyBa]

Hey all and thanks a ton for the great info! I learned a lot from this punkin’ talk! Thanks Terry for the photo’s as I am now pretty confident that my, whatever it will be by the time I get to hunt, will be sufficient. I can see why all the broadhead choices are so interesting, the darn things, whether a cheaply made thing, or an expensive thing, they are things of beauty with very dark undertones. Never shot one mounted yet but do have a small collection. Gonna get me a punkin’ and me some testing!

[Terry Green]

Johnny, what weight field tip are you using?