Split, 3-under, fact or opinion

[Terry Green]

This might help with finger pain.....

https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=175231.msg2955797;topicseen#msg2955797

[mjh]

All's I know and I don't know much is that when I switched to 3 under my groups tightened right up nicely.   When I do my part the arrows go where they are supposed to more consistently.

[GCook]

Three under helped me.  But as much as because it gave me a consistent and repeatable aiming system.  The proof is in my 3D scores but also in my effective kill zone.
But it's not about me.  It's about you.  Try it.  Get a light draw weight bow and play with different anchor points and split v three under.  Find what is yours then own it.

[PrimitivePete]

Having extensively tried both, I settled on split because it was more comfortable to use, stronger anchor point for me, repeatable location and most of all better string pressure point, meaning most of the string is being held by the middle finger. For whatever reason 3 under had me anchoring all of the place on my face, I could never find that point on my face to feel solid. That is more about personal preference, since everyone is built a bit different.

[JAH518]

my 2 cents

A. Tiller of the bow is a possibility. However I have a Black Hunter for the wife and she shoots it split and I shoot it 3-under no difference in sound. 

B. Nock point is off and arrow is striking the bow producing the added sound. Typically with 3 under the nock point needs to be a good bit higher. So if it is to low and
    you switch to spit the sound will defiantly reduce.
 

[Kirkll]

There are a lot of opinions based on what's a popular belief rather than what is really true.   I'm of the opinion that tillering a bow for 3 under is an old wives tale myself.... If the limbs are balanced properly there is nothing that a little string nock adjustment wont take care of, unless you are string walking.. and Sometimes an elevated rest will help out....

Keep in mind something.... every bow is built a bit different, and how the limbs are balanced. Where you apply the pressure to the grip, the arrow rest height from pivot point , or pressure point can and will change from one bow to the next too.... You just need to adjust the variables to come up with the sweet spot.

Bottom line is that if you balance the limbs properly you will not be able to tell the difference between shooting split, or 3 under if you are doing it right with a clean release.... using a deep hook with an over sized tab shooting 3 under can definitely increase the noise level...

3 under shooting helps a lot of guys using a gap aiming method bringing your point on closer and your gap smaller at close ranges...   .02 cents     Kirk

[GCook]

Well that's great.  You have an opinion. Mine is a little different.  However, that. Doesn't make me right.  But it does make it right for me.  Don't pop my bubble. 🤣😂🤣

[Pine]

WOW, HOW FAR CAN YOU GO DOWN THERE?

[Terry Green]

Kirk, I'm not sure about 'wives tale'.... there have be a bunch and I mean a bunch over the 20 years we've been here talking about a used bow they bought being loud.  They were asked if they shot split or 3 under. When they said 3 under they were told to shoot spit and see if it was quieter. 99% if they said yes. Meaning it wasn't tillered for 3 under.  Heck they are even tillered different, not even, for spit for a reason....

"A bow with a stiffer upper limb is upside down and is already out of tiller.
    No bow should ever have a stiffer upper limb.

A bow with a stiffer upper limb will cause the upper limb to recoil faster than the lower limb and likely cause hand shock because it stops faster than the lower limb.

When bow limbs are of equal length, to make both limbs synchronous, the bowyer MUST make the upper limb slightly weaker to match the longer lower limb so that they recoil at exactly the same speed.

If your bow has equal length limbs outside the handle, and there is a greater gap between the string and limb in one limb [positive tiller], you should turn it so that that limb is the upper limb and shoot it that way".

Dean Torges
 

[Kirkll]

Kirk, I'm not sure about 'wives tale'.... there have be a bunch and I mean a bunch over the 20 years we've been here talking about a used bow they bought being loud.  They were asked if they shot split or 3 under. When they said 3 under they were told to shoot spit and see if it was quieter. 99% if they said yes. Meaning it wasn't tillered for 3 under.  Heck they are even tillered different, not even, for spit for a reason....

"A bow with a stiffer upper limb is upside down and is already out of tiller.
    No bow should ever have a stiffer upper limb.

A bow with a stiffer upper limb will cause the upper limb to recoil faster than the lower limb and likely cause hand shock because it stops faster than the lower limb.

When bow limbs are of equal length, to make both limbs synchronous, the bowyer MUST make the upper limb slightly weaker to match the longer lower limb so that they recoil at exactly the same speed.

If your bow has equal length limbs outside the handle, and there is a greater gap between the string and limb in one limb [positive tiller], you should turn it so that that limb is the upper limb and shoot it that way".

Dean Torges
 

Well Terry..... I think if you read what followed that "Old Wives Tale" opinion of mine, you'll notice that i said that there are many variables.... If a bow has it's limbs balanced right to the pivot point or pressure point being applied to the grip, The actual tiller measurement means nothing.....you can have a bow that has perfectly balanced limbs that actually measures negative tiller depending on "Where" the limbs are bending and how even they are top and bottom limb..... 

When you pick up a new bow to you... The first thing you do is find where the limbs are balanced at... Some bows with low wrist grips, you need find the sweet spot on the pressure point first. Others that have a higher wrist grip shape are typically balanced to the deepest part of the grip requiring the pressure point be applied in the throat, and avoid heeling down on the grip....

For example.....If you want me to build you a custom bow.....besides the design and length, the most important part of fitting this to you is to match your natural wrist angle on the grip, and see where you are going to apply the pressure.... For you... considering you like to have the option of canting your bow to different angles, i would keep your shelf height relatively close to your bow hand. Say 3/4" above center. I'd also make sure the shelf was cut too-center, and not past center at all. So you tune the arrows to paradox, and not effect the windage at all by canting the bow.... Shooting right off the knuckle allows you to do that.

If i see you are putting more pressure on your lower thumb pad than the throat of the grip, the odds are the limb balance will end up an 1/8" positive on tiller measurement.... Some guys say that would be tillering for 3 under right there..... Me.... It's just limb balance tuning when i build the bow.

 With all that said and done, you could still shoot that bow split or 3 under no problem and not even notice the difference after you adjust the string nock location.     Kirk

[Terry Green]

I hear ya on that Kirk. 

I yield to the grip, I can shoo straight, my selfbow all the way to a low wrist recurve type.  The only grip I do not like at all is a palm swell. I can shoot it no problem, but it's like carrying around a softball all day. 

[GCook]

Kirk I don't disagree with your assessment.  I disagree your assessment is what people want in a custom bow. 
In my opinion you as a builder should be able to build a bow that suites me.  And I don't want my nock at 5/8 or 3/4 because "all you have to do is raise your nock point".  Build it so it's within standards that don't require those extreme adjustments or require me to use extremes to quiet the bow like 14gpp arrows or limb silencers or . . . Otherwise it's just another set of pretty laminates.   

[Kirkll]

All I need is a few pictures of your hand placement at full draw from different angles, and if possible another grip that you like the feel of, and I can build something that you will be very happy with…..

Different  Archers  have different ideas of what they want in a custom bow. There are many different designs that I build. I’ve spent a lot of time prototyping and shooting all of these myself too.

There are the long bow lovers that want a light weight D shape bow that they can shoot at any cant angle for hunting that has a decent trajectory with hunting weight arrows from 9-10 gpp.

Then there are the guys that want something with more mass weight in the same design that shoots a lighter weight shaft at higher performance levels and flat trajectory for 3D competition… and ones that do both…

There are ILF fans that love tinkering with their set up and use elevated rests, & shoot a more center shot set up using a plunger and a flipper rest. Some like the ILF set up for shooting off the shelf and hunt with them more…… These risers are built differently than a competition bow in some cases, and are more forgiving when shooting at different cant angles.

There are short bows, and longer length bows… hybrid long bows, and recurve bows.  Some are configured with static tips , or have a working recurve that opens up at the tail end of the draw….. there are one piece, two piece, and 3 pc configurations, and I’ve built them all at one time or another with very happy customers.

I don’t think we disagree on my assessment of what people want in a custom bow at all. Everyone has different needs. I can, and do build my bows to exact specifications for my customers.

But… I draw the line building the ASL long bow designs in a straight or string follow shape unstrung…I don’t care for effects of the low pre load, or low string tension of that design at all, and I don’t build them…..There are other bowyers that specialize in that design that cater to the HH fan club.

but I do build one I call “ The Boot Hill Express” with enough back set to take the kick out of them, that looks exactly the same when strung and has a bit more horse power too….

Give me a call sometime and we can talk bows if you like. I’m always open to different ideas and different ways of thinking….    Kirk

[Terry Green]

"There are the long bow lovers that want a light weight D shape bow that they can shoot at any cant angle for hunting that has a decent trajectory with hunting weight arrows from 9-10 gpp."

Let's don't leave out those that want a heavy weight bow that they can cant at any angle.

 

[smokin joe]

I am really fascinated by what Kirk has to say when the subject of bow design and building comes up. Great information presented with clarity.

[SS Snuffer]

All I can add is try a NEET tab with the felt spacer. It will keep your finger from getting sore, at least it worked for me. It's a cheap thing to try. They come in 3 sizes. I keep 3 on hand at all times.

[GCook]

Sorry I got busy with stuff.
Kirk I'm sure you can.  Randy has taken and modified my grips after seeing me shoot that made a big difference in my ability to enjoy shooting them. 
I wasn't pointing at you specifically but the "custom" bow market in general.
I would imagine what is hardest for a bowyer is a customer who really doesn't know what or why he likes a certain grip.  And I'll be the first to admit my ability to explain that is awkward at best.
However, most bows I can adjust well enough to go shoot decent. It just takes a few arrows.  That said I've bought a couple of second hand  custom bows that I shot well that I couldn't live with how loud they were (says the guy who is 85% dead in his left ear) so I traded them.   Could I have gotten them quiet with heavy arrows and such?  Probably.  But not my cup of tea.
So we as customers need to know what to ask for, be specific and realistic, and work with a bowyer who wants to produce that bow for you.

[Kirkll]

Yup…. It can be challenging building a custom bow for someone that doesn’t really know why he likes the feel of a certain grip shape over another one. But it doesn’t need to be complicated at all. If the customer has a bow already they really like the feel of, and shoots well…. If I can see photos of them at full draw from different angles, I can easily replicate the right wrist rotation and grip angle that determines the pressure point at which the limbs are balanced.

Now the really tough ones are guys that have already been down the custom bow rabbit hole a couple times, and still haven’t found something compatible with their shooting form. They are frustrated and hesitant to commit to another custom build, and do not have anything they like the feel of or can shoot well. Those are the most difficult customers to build for successfully.

A perfect example is the bow I built for “Doc Noc” years ago. Dave Landis passed away some time ago, but has a few write ups posted in the testimonial portion of my web site. He became a close friend of mine after our bow building adventure and we stayed in daily contact for many years….

Dave had a very unique wrist rotation issue. He also had VERY large paws on him too…….Due to previous issues with an elbow injury, his natural wrist rotation was very extreme. When I asked why he couldn’t change that rotation a bit to get his thumb pad located directly behind the bow grip, he said that it was uncomfortable to do so and it hurt his elbow….

 So what was happening was… holding the bow vertical, all the pressure was being applied to the throat of his grip just in the web of his hand, and he was rotating his knuckle up into the shelf area without having any thumb pad contact at all. It was very inconsistent , and he constantly had fletching contact with his hand. If he did adjust his grip where it felt comfortable his bow was canted to well past a  2 o’clock angle and he didn’t want to shoot at an extreme cant….

So this took some time to evaluate the problem, and figure out how to go about accommodating it….. Fortunately he was going to the  Baltimore  Classic that year, and I was going to be there myself. So we were able to do some shooting together and I took video of his shooting style…. What I did to get his grip shape correct wasn’t building a larger grip to accommodate his large hand, but rotating the lower portion below the throat to match his natural rotation and give him a flat spot his thumb pad would fit into at that angle. I  Also raised the shelf up to keep his knuckle clear from arrow fletching. Then I balanced the limbs pretty much to center with his medium wrist angle and pressure point being very close to center top and bottom….. The palm swell on this riser was small and the over all grip size wasn’t any bigger than my stock grips are…But the angles were right and rotated to match his hand.

Dave really freaked out when he first saw the bow… he instantly thought , “This riser is way too small for my big hands.”   

But….. I nailed it…. He was very happy with the results….  Said it was hands down the nicest bow he ever shot.  I ended up building extra limbs later so he could have both recurve and hybrid long bow limbs for it too.    Kirk

[Kirkll]

Sorry…. I didn’t address the bow noise issue…. Bow noise can be caused by a number of things. First off the limb design itself can have a big impact. How much string tension or preload at brace has to do with the limb shape, taper rates being used, and where the limbs are bending have an impact too. The type of string used, and getting the proper brace height should take care of it, but not all bow designs are equal… limb balance to pressure point on the riser is a big one too.

If you pick up a bow that you cannot find the right pressure point to apply to smooth it out after trying different brace heights, it’s quite possible the the limbs are not properly balanced.

A lot of the old time bowyers refer to adjusting limb length top and bottom to address balancing the limbs to the pressure point applied. But there is very little reference to mapping the limbs to check out WHERE the limbs are bending. Actually…. The self bowyers understand what true bow tillering is all about. But a lot of glass bowyers seem to overlook it, and never check it. 

The common misconception regarding glass limbed bows is that the two limbs shaped the same top and bottom are bending exactly the same. In many cases they are… but in some cases they still have a buzz to them or make more noise because one limb is bending a wee bit differently…..  Can this be adjusted?  Yes… but it has to be done while building the bow and adjusted with slight width profile adjustments, sanding a bit of glass, and often times a bit of limb trapping can be done to move where that working limb is bending a fuzz…. Most bowyers don’t mess with this. They bring it in to even tiller for split finger, or  an 1/8” positive and call it 3 under tiller… and call it good. You get your good ones and your bad ones like this…most archers can’t tell the difference anyway.


Bottom line is building a quiet bow shootin* light weight arrows under 10 gpp is tuff to do…..    Kirk.

[GCook]

I hear ya.