Arrow hitting shelf

[Mikewarren33]

Hey dudes. I've been shooting a while. Over 10 years now. There was a time I could bareshaft but I can't any more. I get extremely bad contact on the outside of the shelf of the bow. I couldn't be any more confident that it is the indian and not the arrow. I've tried every arrow spine in the book w/ every weight head on every weight bow and every different nocking point. Some bows it isn't quite as bad, but most bows it's so bad I cant even get a fletched arrow to fly acceptably straight. If I throw an elevated rest on an ilf I have no problem getting good straight bareshafts. Problem is ILF's aren't as fun for me and I want to be able to shoot one piece longbows and hill bows and selfbows but as we all know- archery isn't really fun if your arrows don't fly straight.

Anyways, I'm looking for suggestions on things to try to get rid of the arrow bouncing off the shelf that don't include "your arrow is too stiff" or "your nock point is too low".

About me-
I currently shoot 3 under. I've done all the clum courses. My form is pretty good. I shoot daily. I tend to have a high elbow and my release tends to go down and not straight back. My efforts to fix that have shown no improvement in arrow flight but I also haven't fully fixed it. My shoulders were both surgically repaired and as a result I have a weak back but overdeveloped traps that make up for it. I think I draw the bow with my traps and not my back.

Any suggestions out there for a frustrated bow hunter? I see other people shoot with horrible form and they just shoot BB's down range. My arrows do summersaults

[Walt Francis]

From your description it is hard to determine much.  Take some videos of yourself shooting from the front, back, both sides, and above, then review them in detail.  Post the videos on the shooters form here on TradGang, there are several people on that form that are good at dissecting shooter/form problems.
Also, send Tom an email, he is good at helping people who have purchased his course. 

[Orion]

If you rule out spine and form, there's not much else that can cause the slapping. Are you sure you're not plucking? Also, might want to check your brace height.   A too low brace height will cause the arrow to slap off the riser.   

[trad_bowhunter1965]

When you say bouncing off your riser up and down or side to side , if it's up and down adjust your nock height and if it side to side raise your brace height or lower it find the sweet spot.

[MnFn]

If you are certain it’s not spine or nock height, I think spending significant time shooting at bare bales may be helpful. I would just concentrate on getting a good release.  I know it must be frustrating, but it has to be something.

[Kirkll]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned and should be looked at, is how you "Grip" your bow. Technically you shouldn't be  "Gripping" the bow at all because it can, and will cause the riser to torque as soon as you drop the string. This could easily cause issues with arrow clearance.

 If you draw the bow with an open hand letting the grip settle in to the thumb pad and web of your hand, then just relax the fingers and let them lay gently on the back of the riser instead of wrapping your fingers clear around the grip, Just this little trick alone can make a huge difference.

Food for thought....     BTW.... spending time on the bale working on your form, release, and alignment is the only way to go.

[4 point]

To much pressure on your ring finger from a high elbow, pinching the arrow nock to tight between your finger and nocking point and arrow sliding down the string on the shot are a few things to look at. Try a double nock point if you’re not using one already. Try shooting with a higher anchor point like index finger on your cheek bone to see if it helps at all.

[Mikewarren33]

Thanks fellas. Some things to try.

Some responses  (sorry for delay):
4 point - I do shoot with two nock points and my index finger is on my cheek bone like suggested. Maybe could try a lower anchor?
Kirkll - I always want my grip to be the root of the problem but I can put zero pressure on it to where it jumps out of my hand at the shot and it still happens. I will say it seems much worse with straight grip bows and I can actually overcome it by torquing the bow with my grip hand as hard as I can to the right. I'm right handed. But that induces some massive string slap on my arm if you can imagine what I'm saying. Which has led me to think maybe I pull past alignment?
MnFn- If it is in my release I cant seem to figure out a way to release and have it not happen. I can even shoot with 1 finger on the string and it still happens haha.
trad_bowhunter - It's all the above. Up down side to side. When I shoot FMJ arrows the contact is so bad that its worn down the shelf material on my ilf and it creates metal on metal contact so bad that i can smell a burning smell after each shot... Problem is I've ruled out nock point and brace height. I wish it was those but I just know it aint the weapon or the arrow.. it's me.
Orion - I haven't ruled out form. That's why I'm here. I believe it IS a form issue and I want the form experts to give me some opinions.
Walt - I do need to reach out to clum. But he's trad royalty and I dont want to annoy him but i may need to get over that. 

[Orion]

I dunno.  You say you don't 'puck, but plucking is a bad habit that can become ingrained in the/every shot without the shooter noticing it.  Where, exactly, does your string hand end up after the shot.  If it's away/out from your face, that could very likely be the problem.  For myself, I have to anchor tight to my face and make sure my string hand stays on my face or moves back along it toward my ear at release.  Whenever it ends up away from my face at the shot, the arrow goes left.   

A high string hand elbow can also cause vertical torque on the string, which will cause the arrow to act unruly, primarily porpoising, which you'll hear as a slap off the shelf.  So, if you haven't already tried it, lower your shooting arm elbow (maybe a lot).

Finally, don't grip the bow tightly.  Let the grip find a comfortable position in the palm of your hand pre shot, then just lightly close your fingers around the grip and draw.

I'm pretty much just taking wild guesses here.  A video of your shooting, as Walt suggested, would help a lot.  Good luck.

[Mikewarren33]

Ok I'll get a video out. If I made it sound like I'm confident I don't pluck please forgive me. I'm certainly not ruling out plucking. My string hand does tend to go down at release. I've worked on that a lot but never overcome.

[Kirkll]

Is there any way you can post a picture of you at full draw from a couple different angles? After what you have described, I cant help but think there is an alignment issue and you are not getting off the string clean.   Kirk

[Walt Francis]

My experience.
Nothing helps with shooting/form more than HONESTLY ANALYZING a video of yourself shooting from all directions.  The same goes for almost all athletic endeavors.  However, we often tell ourselves half truths, rather consciously or unconsciously, that reinforce or ignore the bad habits/form until confronted with reality.  Even then, many refuse to to believe their eyes. 

The videos do not lie.

A good coach can make it easier to accept the reality and make the correct changes.

Give Tom a call, it will surprise you how down to earth and helpful he is.

[Mikewarren33]

[Tim Finley]

 Try holding on to the grip, a loose open hand will grip the bow on release torquing it , heel the grip dont hold it with your thumb get your fingers around the handle. Stop dropping your bow arm down and to the left keep aiming after you shoot . You have a few issues .

[Orion]

Hmmm.  Form looks relatively good to me, though, as Tim points out, you do have a tendency to drop the bow arm, a movement that may be started before release. That would cause a consistent arrow placement issue, i.e., it could place the arrow a little low and left consistently, but that hasn't much to do with arrow flight itself. 

I think in this case, your grip may be too loose.  A completely loose grip is fine, if your bow is balanced so it doesn't move at the shot.  Your bow has a tendency to twist left at the shot.  Though most of that occurs as recoil to the shot, there may be enough of it occurring during the shot to affect arrow flight. Pressure on the grip looks pretty good to me, but again, as Tim notes, because of the loose grip, you may be grabbing the grip at release.   Not sure that would affect arrow flight though because the arrow likely has cleared the bow before you grab, if that makes any sense. 

Looks like you were paying particular attention to your form in the video.  How did the arrows shoot?  Better, perhaps?

Don't think we have it yet.  Maybe others will see something I don't. What kind of erratic arrow flight are you getting, porpoising? fishtailing? corkscrewing?

OK.  Just looked at the video again.  Are you shooting a cushion plunger or adjustable side plate of one sort or another?  If so, check the arrow alignment on the bow.  Hang the bow vertically from a peg and with the arrow on the bow, the right tip of the arrow should just about touch the left side of the string when viewed from behind.  If it bisects the string, or worse yet, is toward the right side of the string, that will almost always lead to erratic arrow flight when shot with fingers.  Do this check regardless of what kind of side plate you have. 

BTW, very quiet bow. 

[Mikewarren33]

Thanks fellas. I'll work on the grip and front arm. I definitely tend towards a very loose grip and always thought that would prevent any torqueing. Maybe it's making it worse. I am shooting an adjustable flipper rest type thing and it is the only way i get clean arrow flight. If I go off the shelf with this bow its horrible. The arrow flight off the shelf is so erratic that it cannot be described with one direction or the other. I would say closer to porpoising than fish tailing most of the time. I think this bow may be worse because of the forward handle and the arrow spending a little more time on the shelf. If I get a weak spined arrow and move my nocking point way up and shoot 5" fletchings i can make do off  the shelf of this one.

I cannot test any potential fixes with this elevated flipper rest setup but it keeps me from getting pissed off.

[Orion]

I wasn't suggesting a fix yet, just a measurement.  If the point of your arrow bisects or is to the right of the string at rest, that's your problem.  With the adjustable flipper, I suspect it's probably adjusted close enough to get decent arrow flight.  But when you take the flipper off, it very likely happens, particularly if the bow is cut past center. If that's the case, you need to build out the side plate. 

[Walt Francis]

 After a watching the video several times, this is what I see:

While drawing you are quick to near over expansion, then quickly collapsing, followed by partially reengaging your draw, then locking in, or stopping everything, conscientiously releasing, and finishing with what appears an after thought.  There is no continuous continuity in the shot sequence from engagement thru conclusion.

To me, your shot sequence appears herky-jerky.

That said, regardless if it is or is not the “ideal form”, if there are no issues with where the arrow goes, it doesn’t matter....as long as your sequence is always the same.

You said you are having issues, try making your shot sequence continuous, or should I say, fluid, from initiation through conclusion.

[Mikewarren33]

Thanks for your time everybody. I'll report back on any successful results.