Author Topic: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher  (Read 4222 times)

Online Kirkll

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2023, 11:54:47 AM »
That’s a good looking bend to those limbs Max. :thumbsup: How you guys pull that off with an .002 forward taper without them going sideways amazes me. I’ve never had much luck with a fast taper on a recurve limb. Damn things like to go sideways on me too easily…..

Here are a couple basic rules of engagement for taper rates and lam thickness and number.

Most long R/D bows use a FT of .002 -.004 and the number of lams and total limb thickness depends on limb length, limb shape, and draw weight.  A good rule of thumb is to never exceed .080 in lam thickness.

 Let’s say you have a stack height of 320 for a mild reflex long bow and are using .040 glass…. That leaves .240 in the core. Most guys measure their  stack heights at the thickest portion of the tapered stack. I’m an old ball in that dept and measure my stack 10” up from the butt so I do not have any false readings from snipe in the sander….. but anyway….

With a .240 core you could use 3 lams at .080 , or 4 lams at .060 to get the same stack height…. The 4 @  .060 would be the better choice. Why? Having  More thinner lams hold the shape of your limbs coming out of the form better with less spring back, and the thinner lams are going to be stronger in compression than the thicker lams. You will often notice a slight increase in draw weight using more laminations.

The faster the taper rate, the more the limb tips bend. But you can build a long bow with  an .004 taper rate, and use an 8” tip wedge coming back the other direction to keep it from being too whippy tipped, and it forces the energy storage into a smaller section of the limb. This is very desirable for performance.


With an RC bow your FT will typically run from .002 , to a parallel depending on how radical your hook is, limb shape, and limb pad angle. You’ll also find that as you start building lighter draw weight recurve bows, that the thinner limbs go sideways easier.

So using the same form, you can have a perfectly stable limb at 50-55# and at 35-40# you can’t keep a string on it as you draw the bow.  But…. If you build that lighter draw weight bow using a parallel stack it adds more beef to the base of the curl and you pick your torsional stability back up…. The magic number on my glass backed RC bows  when things start getting squirrelly is .190 at the base of the hook…. I’ve even used reverse tapers to thicken that outer limb on ultra light bows.

Just recently I have gone back to using a twill carbon back on my ultra light static tip recurves. This makes a huge difference on torsional stability. I was at the point where I just wouldn’t build a static tip recurve under 35@28. I’ve got one going right now drawing 34 @ 30 that feels like a 65# bow in torsional strength.

But….. you start talking about carbon backed bows and that is a whole different rabbit hole. An expensive one to go down too.   





 Kirk

Offline Mad Max

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2023, 01:01:04 PM »



bdsmith
You can see Kirk's limbs are straighter at brace than mine but when his is at full draw I can tell his Butt wedge is longer than mine plus his full draw is different than mine a little. His probably has better Performance  :thumbsup:

Here is a 62" static ( tight hooks) recurve with a 26" long riser, .002 taper



« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 01:17:37 PM by Mad Max »
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Offline Mad Max

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2023, 01:19:32 PM »
This is the book (way to learn) you can ask questions also.
Show us you glass bows, Braced and full draw. ;)
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Offline Buemaker

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2023, 03:03:52 PM »
Here is one of mine 62inch AMO. Riser is 19 inches long. Limbs has a total .0015 taper. Wedge extend 4 3/4 outside limb pads. Wedge do not have a straight taper, but dips into a concave taper. Gray maple action wood, Stabilkore  and black Botuff










« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 07:59:02 AM by Buemaker »

Offline bdsmith1

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2023, 06:16:28 PM »
Max, you're not being an A-hole at all, and I'd gladly deal with it if you were for this info lol.  Kirk, This is exactly the what I'm looking for.  I'm working off a bingham r/d hybrid form. My last bow is shooting great with a .355 stack with FT of .003, .050 glass, but only two lams. Both over .11 thick, but both tapered. The rule of thumb of. 080 per lam is exactly something I didn't know I needed to know. I need to learn all I can about reverse tapers and every other configuration that doesn't just involve FT lams. I know that the exact dimensions change with the design and desired geometry/performance, but explaining the method and general rules for how to get there is really about all I'm looking for. Any other conventional "wish I woulda known" wisdom for someone who knows just enough to be dangerous is really welcome. I can't thank you guys enough.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 09:10:05 PM by bdsmith1 »

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2023, 06:28:10 PM »
Here's a link to the last bow

https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=182532.0

It has a gif of the bow being shot, but no stills.  I just ordered six more pieces of glass from Big Jim, and I got a box of bamboo flooring for limb cores. I'll be experimenting more in the next week or two. I'll try the next stack with three lams with two having .002 FT. I've never used the flooring, so any tips on that are welcome as well.

One last question, does anyone have an opinion on ash as a core material?  I have a ton of it, so if it's good stuff, I want to use it.

Thanks fellas!
« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 07:25:12 PM by bdsmith1 »

Offline Mad Max

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2023, 07:42:55 AM »
Use the Bamboo :thumbsup:
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Online Kirkll

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2023, 01:17:34 PM »
The recurve i posted above has a par core. i use Hard rock maple on the belly side and a bamboo core on the back side of the stack. This is what i call my magical core combo. Bamboo being optimum in tension, and maple being excellent in compression properties. Both of these have very good longevity.   The riser is 19" with long limbs. I use the ILF limb length standards, Short, Medium, and longs, as well as ILF riser lengths. This helps me keep the limb dynamics the same from my bolt down limbs to ILF format.   These long limbs use an 11.5" straight taper wedge that extends 7" beyond the riser giving the bow a 33" length from fade tip to fade tip. The butt wedges are milled from .300 to nothing in 12" giving me a long lean wedge.  From the end of the riser, to the tip notches is 22" in length.  This gives me a 64" bow.   My lams going into the form are 30" in length. 1/2" comes off the butt, and about 1 1/2" off the tip . i lay up the 12" butt wedge, and use an 8" tip wedge in this limb design  leaving about 6.5" of tip wedge coming down from the limb tips and about 5.5" from the tip notch. These can be adjusted back and forth to manipulate the working limb length from 10" to 11".   On a medium limb i cut 1.5" off the butt coming out of the form giving me a 21" length to the tip notches. This keeps my tip notches located in the same spot in the curl of the limb tip and maintains the limb dynamics in a shorter version.

The part that i keep track of when tweaking the limb design is the distance between the tip wedge fade out and the butt wedge fade out. These measurements is what i refer to as "The working portion" of the limb.   Shifting wedges and lengths on the wedges effect how the energy is stored at different draw lengths.... The longer limbs with more working limb area between the wedges allow a smoother draw to 32" .  But.... you can manipulate a shorter limb with longer working limb to build a 60" recurve with medium limbs that draws as smooth as the longer limbs, and get much higher performance...

It's endless what you can do to manipulate what your limbs can do just using different taper rates and wedges......

Everything i've discribed above applies to long bow limbs as well.... My Flat liner design uses a 22" riser, with a power lam that are 30" in length, AND i use the same 8" tip wedges...

Here are some photos...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7K8g7MdsLpwQmnFV6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YKDN29wyr6SC4S2j7
« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 02:33:00 PM by Kirkll »
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Offline Mad Max

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2023, 05:02:48 PM »
Bamboo flooring

Vertical is what you want, tongue and groove, I set my fence on the band saw and rip the groove off the side, then set the fence to 1-1/2" or 1-3/4" and rip to width, my saw cuts parallel nicely so not much work getting them to finished width.

I like to rip with the top of the flooring down, The finish on the flooring is very hard so I think is saves your blade to some degree.
I LIKE to use a 1/2" Wood slicer blade from Highland woodworking.
Tuning up your bandsaw is a must for me to get a good parallel cut, plus your fence needs to be set for the drift of the blade.
Drift of the blade meaning for ME is--Lots of parts on  a bandsaw guiles so they will not be square to the fence.
Google both and watch several videos on them. :thumbsup:
A table saw will work but most blades are thicker, so you loose a good bit of your flooring.

Vertical flooring meaning, vertical lines (6 pieces of bamboo glued together from the factory) for this 1-1/2" blank, So all your finished lams have multiple bamboo pieces




I cut the tongue off the end and start resawing the lams
« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 07:54:56 PM by Mad Max »
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Online Kirkll

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2023, 08:08:54 PM »
Max.... Where are you buying your vertical grain bamboo? and who manufactures it?
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Offline Mad Max

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2023, 10:03:36 PM »
Max.... Where are you buying your vertical grain bamboo? and who manufactures it?

One of my archery buddy's got it in North Carolina and brought it to me at the Tn. Classic , so no shipping.
No name or Info. on the box,   :dunno:  No voids, good stuff
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Online Kirkll

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2023, 10:57:37 AM »
Max.... Where are you buying your vertical grain bamboo? and who manufactures it?

One of my archery buddy's got it in North Carolina and brought it to me at the Tn. Classic , so no shipping.
No name or Info. on the box,   :dunno:  No voids, good stuff

I’d love to find another company that still builds the vertical grain flooring, but cannot find it.

I tried a case of what they call “Fossilized” bamboo from Cali bamboo and it was decent stuff…. But… it was a woven strand material and impregnated with a resin. The hardness was off the charts and it has great strength using thinner lams. But the extra mass weight it adds to the limbs makes it undesirable in lighter draw weight bows. Anything over 50# it didn’t seem to have any effects on performance.  On the plus side this material has much higher compression rates than any bamboo I’ve used.

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2023, 02:52:00 PM »
I'm sure there are flooring Company's with left over stock and may or may not know they have it.
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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2023, 03:06:34 PM »
I'm sure there are flooring Company's with left over stock and may or may not know they have it.

THAT.... is not a bad idea. :thumbsup:

You might get a hell of a deal on a few dusty old boxes they have sitting in a corner. It's just finding the stuff...I may do some research on this and see what i can come up with.   Great idea!
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Offline Mad Max

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2023, 05:47:52 PM »
Could be 10 mile from home. :bigsmyl:
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Offline bdsmith1

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2023, 07:54:10 PM »
The bamboo I have is stranded... Dang it... So I drove all over Athens Ga today checking all the flooring and building supply stores, and I finally had a guy tell me that they stopped carrying the vertical bamboo because it had stability issues.  I'm going to just try and find an online vendor, or just get some rock maple.  I have some hickory I could use for now?  It works great in selfbows because it works well in tension and compression, so I think it may work.  Also have a little Osage too, but I was wanting to save that for some BBOs.

Max, I got my bandsaw setup with a Lennox DieMaster 2 bimetal blade around 4tpi at Kenny's suggestion.  I've only been through about 30 lams of Ash (Which I'm not even going to use as its not really ideal :banghead: ) but it's a heck of a blade.  As for stripping that top coat, I have a supermax 16-32 drum sander I used to get the top off of that stranded boo.  It had the faux worn texture to it, so It took a little to flatten it, but I put 36 grit ceramic on the drum and just let it eat.

I found some of the vertical bamboo on websites that it looks like you can still order, but it eats you up on shipping. Big Jim sells Actionboo Core Laminations, so maybe he would know where you can still find it?  If anyone has a breakthrough on that, please share.  It seems like the stranded is the way that industry is leaning, so the vertical is going to just be hard to find from now on.

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2023, 07:57:50 PM »
This is about what you're looking at after shipping for a single box of bamboo

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2023, 08:56:58 PM »
Actually.... that isn't a bad price. I was paying $5.00 PSF for the stuff.... But.... It says on their website there is a 500 sf minimum order.   Did you get them to wave that minimum?

Think about it..... In one case i get 144 lams using a table saw. so spending $165 you are only talking about $1.14 per lam. If you are using 4 lams per bow you got less than $5.00 in materials.  I may contact these guys myself. The amber carbonized stuff is exactly what you want...

BTW.... These inexpensive framing blades are really thin kerf and work well for ripping lams on a table saw....

https://www.amazon.com/D0724A-Diablo-Framing-Diamond-Knockout/dp/B00006407P/ref=pd_lpo_sccl_2/136-4421059-0408518?pd_rd_w=r4A9h&content-id=amzn1.sym.116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf_rd_p=116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf_rd_r=W3T0YMEDKN2YGTA81YRK&pd_rd_wg=mkwaa&pd_rd_r=c19fac4d-69e1-4d62-9d26-a8002d019627&pd_rd_i=B00006407P&psc=1

Kirk
« Last Edit: November 28, 2023, 09:09:18 PM by Kirkll »
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Offline Mad Max

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Re: Looking for a book: Crafting Laminated Longbows by Mike Basher
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2023, 07:55:17 AM »
bdsmith, lets back up for a min.

When Bamboo flooring first came out for flooring it was easy to get, you could go to Lowes or Home depot and get 1 box or order it with no shipping charge.
That's why we used it, plus it's awesome.
The Rosewood shop sells archery wood and has it and HR maple.

This place had a lot of it 2 years ago, you would have to call.
https://hardwoodfloorscharlotte.com/contact-us/
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