Hill style question

[kennym]

Had a guy ask me what the kinda standard backset (reflex) and also the string follow in those bows?

Thanks in advance!
kenny

[Pat B]

Howard Hill preferred a little bit of string follow in his bows but today Hill style bows probably runs from having a little string follow to having a little reflex.

[kennym]

I mean roughly how much string follow built in?

And for the other style how much reflex?

Thanks, Pat!

[evgb127]

You can build in quite a bit of backset if you want. Probably 2 inches is a good place to start.  If you’re really talking about a Hill style bow, as opposed to a flat bow, then I recommend that you refer the guy to this video as a starting point:

[kennym]

Thank you!!

[Longcruise]

My quickest hill style so far has 1.75" backset in a continuous arc through the bow including the riser.  It would probably be equally efficient if the riser section were flat with the arc only in the working portion but I went full length to allow playing with riser length without making form mods.

I'll dig out the spec sheet later.

[kennym]

Thanks Mike, I'm building a form for a fellow with string follow on one edge and some reflex on other.

[Longcruise]

I'm guessing that you don't need any stack or lay up info then?

 No help from me on a string follow.  Some of my straight bows have developed some string follow in the 1" neighborhood but I've not built it in.

[Kirkll]

I never could understand why anyone would actually build string follow into a longbow except possibly for a longer brace height.   could someone please explain the theory behind that ?

[Longcruise]

I never could understand why anyone would actually build string follow into a longbow except possibly for a longer brace height.   could someone please explain the theory behind that ?

I can't 'sprain it!  I've not done an FDC on one but it seems like it would have a belly in it.  Those who like them seem to prefer the ease of drawing.   I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

[mmattockx]

I never could understand why anyone would actually build string follow into a longbow except possibly for a longer brace height.   could someone please explain the theory behind that ?

I'm with you. It's got to be the easier early draw, because set/string follow does nothing positive and hurts performance significantly. Set is always a problem on a wood bow and is typically extremely hard to avoid, but there is no good reason to allow it on a fibreglass bow that can easily withstand the strain of higher performance.

If it were me I would build in some reflex and increase the early draw weight to get the most performance I can out of what is inherently a lower performance design.


Mark

[kennym]

Thanks Mike, he has the specs on it...

I was mostly curious about what other folks use.

I don't do these straight bows, so pretty much clueless on all of it.

[Kirkll]

I never could understand why anyone would actually build string follow into a longbow except possibly for a longer brace height.   could someone please explain the theory behind that ?

I'm with you. It's got to be the easier early draw, because set/string follow does nothing positive and hurts performance significantly. Set is always a problem on a wood bow and is typically extremely hard to avoid, but there is no good reason to allow it on a fibreglass bow that can easily withstand the strain of higher performance.

If it were me I would build in some reflex and increase the early draw weight to get the most performance I can out of what is inherently a lower performance design.


Mark

I'm with you brother on reflex, early weight, and performance..... But.... These dyed in the wool hard core HH fans do not care about performance or hand shock either. It's a cult i tell ya!   

There are exceptions to the rule.  once you get over 70# , Those bows perform a lot better at higher draw weights.... Why?   Higher string tension and early weight in draw cycle built into the heavier draw weights.

Btw.... Howard Hill shot 70# + bows too....  Just saying.... 

[evgb127]

OK, as a “dyed in the wool hard core HH fan,” I will take the bait… 

The vast majority of bows that claim to be “Hill Style,” are not built like anything close to what Howard ever would have shot.  Those bows, as pretty as anyone can make them, are dogs when it comes to performance.  So, I agree with what you’ve said so far. As for hand shock, that is a bit more subjective.  A lot of people don’t know how to shoot Hill style and just use “hand shock” as an excuse for not holding the bow correctly.

Ultimately, I agree with you Kirk that it is a cult. You should try our Kool-aid, it’s delicious! 

[mmattockx]

The vast majority of bows that claim to be “Hill Style,” are not built like anything close to what Howard ever would have shot.  Those bows, as pretty as anyone can make them, are dogs when it comes to performance.

I have no dog in this fight at all, so I'm curious. If what people call a HH bow these days is not what the man himself would have shot, what did he shoot?


Mark

[evgb127]

Check out the video I posted above.  It explains exactly what Howard shot. The riser should be no longer than 12 inches. The limbs should be no wider than one inch at the riser and only .5 inches at the limp tip.  The limbs should be built with what Howard called a “bulge,” meaning that two-thirds of the distance from the end of the riser fade-out to the string nock tapers down to 75% of the width and thickness of the base of the limb, then the remaining 25% of the limb narrows to 50%. The end result is a stable, thick-limbed bow with an elliptical tiller. 

A lot of people sell bows that they call Hill style, but they are really just flat bows.

Plus, to be a true Hill style bow, you really need to build the bow twice.  First you build a stave, then you add the glass. There are a few great bow builders who do this, but it is time consuming and not profitable enough to make a business out of it.   

[bucknut]

I believe the premise of the string follow was to get the bow aligned in your hand before you get into the heavier poundage of the draw curve. Creating a better platform for accuracy.  I can’t say it helps me because I shoot like shit since my elbow and shoulder went to hell. I agree with Evan. Just my opinion, but Comparing a really good Hill style bow to the rest of the “Hill style” is like night and day. As far as hand shock goes. I would put my Sunset Hill beside any bow on the market. I’ve owned a bunch of them and pound for pound it is as good as they get. As Charlie Lamb put it.  The best bow that money can’t buy.  Just my opinion though.

[Kirkll]

OK, as a “dyed in the wool hard core HH fan,” I will take the bait… 

The vast majority of bows that claim to be “Hill Style,” are not built like anything close to what Howard ever would have shot.  Those bows, as pretty as anyone can make them, are dogs when it comes to performance.  So, I agree with what you’ve said so far. As for hand shock, that is a bit more subjective.  A lot of people don’t know how to shoot Hill style and just use “hand shock” as an excuse for not holding the bow correctly.

Ultimately, I agree with you Kirk that it is a cult. You should try our Kool-aid, it’s delicious! 

Trust me brother…. I’ve tried that cool aid a lot in the past, and I puked every time.  But…..What  I  found was the absolute best way to shoot a Hill style bow without getting any hand shock at all  is………Using someone else’s hand…..

  I’m sorry…. But I’m not buying that crap about shooting with a bent elbow and gripping it like you are choking a chicken just to overcome that teeth rattling kick most those thing have…

I built a perfect replica of an HH style bow years ago that doesn’t kick at all, and has a lot better performance….. but I couldn’t sell them to the HH fan club at all because they had too much early draw weight, didn’t have that “Thump” after the shot, and the arrows flew too fast…… Go figure….

[evgb127]

And that right there is the beauty of traditional archery.  There is more than one way to combine wood, glue, and glass.   At the end of the day, as long as you’re having fun, it’s all good. 

[Kirkll]

I should also add that I do understand the significance of what a great archer Howard Hill was, and can appreciate the fan clubs and everything they do to keep his legacy alive.

I’ve actually read a lot of materials about the bow building process they used in days gone by, and the materials and glue used to try and hold them together. It was fascinating studying the Perry reflex system and two part lay ups used….

But the whole industry changed with the use of modern epoxy and higher quality glass availability. There was a big trial and error thing going in many respects…

I think about all those early Black Widow bows with their black walnut risers and white glass. They were beautiful……..Every now and then you still see a collector with one that hasn’t self destructed. But they figured out too late after mass producing them that black walnut wasn’t  a good choice for longevity….. look at those risers now…

I sincerely mean no disrespect to those true Howard Hill fans. But as a bowyer I’m not impressed with that straight profile long design… but Howard built a lot of them with reflex too.     Kirk