Bare shafting...gotta be me.

[Riverrat43]

My bow is a Hill Style or ASL by Creek Walker. I'm trying to find the best shooting arrow. I want to use 160 -165 gr broadheads. I got a test pack from Surewood since I would like to use fir. It has 55-60, 60-65 and 65-70 spines in it all 32 inches long. My bow is 66 inches, 45lb @ 28. Not center cut. My draw is 28.5.
The 55-60 show in the target as weak. Cutting off 1/4 ich at a time, the arrow gets down to 29 inches and still shows weak. Too short for my liking. Same with the 60-65 but a bit less weak and can get to 30 and still can't get it to center up. I thought, no way I need to shoot 65-70 but I tried anyway. It showd less weak at full length than did any of the others and had started to move more to the right when I had to stop and attend to some business.
Some observations, the nock moves a bit closer to center, left and right, as I cant my bow more. With the bow in a vertical position, it shoots showing a weaker arrow. With a tab, I get two weak arrows and a too stiff arrow. Then, a couple of fairly straight shots and then back to weak when I pay close attention to form. I'm shooting about 6 times with each adjustment of length on the arrow. When I change to a glove, it is more consistent. I get maybe 4 weak, one center and one stiff. The bow maker says he shot it with 60lb spine ash and it shot really well. Is it possible I need to use the 65-70 spine? All of my shooting is at eye level and I shoot at 5 yds, 7, 10 and a few at 15. ( broke two shafts from 15 when they flew sideways to the target and didn't get straightened out quick enough. Can a poor release or maybe not following through correctly or something else I am doing hinder the progress so much? This isn't as easy as it looks on you tube lol.

[Orion]

For a right hand shooter, weak spines would group to the right.  Is that what you're seeing?  Or are you basing it on the angle of the arrow into the target at close range., tail left.  It's very possible you're getting a false weak out of all the arrows.  If the arrows are too stiff, they bounce off the side plate and would enter the4 target tail left at close range. 


Might you have any lighter spined arrows you could try. 60#spine in a heavy hardwood (because of the greater physical weight of the shaft) will act a lot softer dynamically than 60# of a much lighter cedar or spruce shaft.

The fact that your results aren't consistent is also an indication of a form problem.  Weak or strong, the arrows should show the same pattern consistently.  If they don't, the shooter is doing something differently from shot to shot. 

[Mint]

I had no luck bare shaft testing since I tend to push down on my arrow a lot of the time and i nock over. I paper test with fletched shafts and see how the arrows fly. Since i push down i always get a 1/2 inch nock high tear at six feet but i can't see it with the naked eye.

[Riverrat43]

For a right hand shooter, weak spines would group to the right.  Is that what you're seeing?  Or are you basing it on the angle of the arrow into the target at close range., tail left.  It's very possible you're getting a false weak out of all the arrows.  If the arrows are too stiff, they bounce off the side plate and would enter the4 target tail left at close range. 


Might you have any lighter spined arrows you could try. 60#spine in a heavy hardwood (because of the greater physical weight of the shaft) will act a lot softer dynamically than 60# of a much lighter cedar or spruce shaft.

The fact that your results aren't consistent is also an indication of a form problem.  Weak or strong, the arrows should show the same pattern consistently.  If they don't, the shooter is doing something differently from shot to shot.

I am right handed and am basing the weak or stiff condition soley on nock left or right.

[SS Snuffer]

I would go back to 12 to 15 yards and shoot a bare shaft if it curves to the left it too stiff too the right week. That sticking in the target at close range never works for me. When your arrows broke which way were they flying right or left.

[blacktailbob]

Add some feathers and you might be surprised at the results they make.

I never bare shaft tune, my issues are more brain tuning but that's just me.   

[Michpatriot]

I feel yer pain! Just got down to the rug on Some 400s Yesterday before they cleaned up, but were way short for me..today I got 350s to fly fletched for now and will bare shaft this summer..but if my eye is seeing what I'm happy with so far I'd say I'm very close..its a boondoggle tuning sometimes!.I broke some nice tapered cedar last summer before I gave up and went with the ole eyeball..and you know what? When I tossed some single bevel 2 blades on at the end of summer ..I didn't need much, just a little twist till I liked em..I tried 1\4 in shorter on one and it started planing so the ole eyeball can do wonders if your patient and mindful. I'll do my final analysis on cold shots first thing after my morning coffee..if I show weak in the morning I won't be surprised since I'm tired after shootings\tuning like a maniac today! Tomorrow will tell.

[Michpatriot]

You might use a marker to number your arrows. I've found some wood to have a bit of personality differences. Look for arrows that fly different, consistently doing something the others are not doing..also nock clocking as it relates to spine and fletch orientation can be off. How the fletchings clear can be a bugger all its own..its tough when you add in fatigue and enthusiasm for getting things right and wanting it right now..at least for me.

[Hud]

Based on a spine from 3Rivers, the wood shafts for a longbow 45# @ 28" should be 45-50, or 50-55 with a 160 grain FP. It has been my experience that if you cut the shafts 1" longer for broadheads then push the range by 5# to 50-55 or 55-60.  Here is a link to their spine chart.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.3riversarchery.com/pdf/ArrowCharts.pdf

[Riverrat43]

I'm starting to think that you need a different spine weight for fir than you do cedar. My cedars cut to 29.5 or even 30 fly ok, but the fir is weak at the same spine weight. Wonder if the density of he heavier fir is changing things and I need to go down to a 45-50 spine weight.

[Stringwacker]

It's been my experience, that heavier arrows weaken the dynamic spine...so you need to go up in spine as opposed to down. I think  your higher spined arrows are in order due to your 28.5" draw length and long arrow. It might be fun to put a 125 grain field point on them to see if the weaker spines shows stiffer. It would at least indicate you need a heavier spine arrow with the 160 points. (I assume your shooting heavier points to mimic your broadhead choice.)

As a three finger under shooter; I need two nocking points (above and below the arrow) to get consistent arrow readings and arrow flight. Not all people need to do this though.

Lastly, I don't typically bareshaft wood arrows as they have a 5 pound grouping and have at least some variance within the same group spines. I tend to like to fletch a woodie with feathers and cut feathers back to about a 1/4" high with a pair of scissors. My lefts and rights on the single arrow bareshaft method seems to work better that way as its effected less by improper form or variance within a spine group.

Everybody has a different method of getting to the right spine and as long as it works I don't see how it matters as long as your wood arrow flies well. When I work with carbon or aluminum; I strive for a much better bareshaft tune...just because I can.

Also, I've never tried to tune a non-center shot bow with a bareshaft. That could be an entirely different ball game as the arrow gets pushed around the riser more than with a more centershot bow.

[Riverrat43]

Good points. Running out of test arrows. Guess I need to order a new set. Maybe two different ones.

[Michpatriot]

 I threw some of my Cedar arrows that I've been using for the past season on the scale this morning and found 100 grains difference between some arrows..  They will absorb weight in the form of moisture and it can also be a contributing factor..

[Michpatriot]

It's been my experience, that heavier arrows weaken the dynamic spine...so you need to go up in spine as opposed to down. I think  your higher spined arrows are in order due to your 28.5" draw length and long arrow. It might be fun to put a 125 grain field point on them to see if the weaker spines shows stiffer. It would at least indicate you need a heavier spine arrow with the 160 points. (I assume your shooting heavier points to mimic your broadhead choice.)

As a three finger under shooter; I need two nocking points (above and below the arrow) to get consistent arrow readings and arrow flight. Not all people need to do this though.

Lastly, I don't typically bareshaft wood arrows as they have a 5 pound grouping and have at least some variance within the same group spines. I tend to like to fletch a woodie with feathers and cut feathers back to about a 1/4" high with a pair of scissors. My lefts and rights on the single arrow bareshaft method seems to work better that way as its effected less by improper form or variance within a spine group.

Everybody has a different method of getting to the right spine and as long as it works I don't see how it matters as long as your wood arrow flies well. When I work with carbon or aluminum; I strive for a much better bareshaft tune...just because I can.

Also, I've never tried to tune a non-center shot bow with a bareshaft. That could be an entirely different ball game as the arrow gets pushed around the riser more than with a more centershot bow.

Perfect advice! This is exactly what my experience has been..there is no way I will cut a wood arrow according to what the others in the same box are doing..they are individual like fingerprints..and they change with humidity and also how many times you straighten them..

[Riverrat43]

It's been my experience, that heavier arrows weaken the dynamic spine...so you need to go up in spine as opposed to down. I think  your higher spined arrows are in order due to your 28.5" draw length and long arrow. It might be fun to put a 125 grain field point on them to see if the weaker spines shows stiffer. It would at least indicate you need a heavier spine arrow with the 160 points. (I assume your shooting heavier points to mimic your broadhead choice.)

As a three finger under shooter; I need two nocking points (above and below the arrow) to get consistent arrow readings and arrow flight. Not all people need to do this though.

Lastly, I don't typically bareshaft wood arrows as they have a 5 pound grouping and have at least some variance within the same group spines. I tend to like to fletch a woodie with feathers and cut feathers back to about a 1/4" high with a pair of scissors. My lefts and rights on the single arrow bareshaft method seems to work better that way as its effected less by improper form or variance within a spine group.

Everybody has a different method of getting to the right spine and as long as it works I don't see how it matters as long as your wood arrow flies well. When I work with carbon or aluminum; I strive for a much better bareshaft tune...just because I can.

Also, I've never tried to tune a non-center shot bow with a bareshaft. That could be an entirely different ball game as the arrow gets pushed around the riser more than with a more centershot bow.

I'll try a 125 field tip and see if they show stiffer. If so, I'll get another test kit in heavier weights. I tried my 55-60 POC arrows and in two lengths, 29.5 and 30.5 they both fly well and have almost identical POI. Maybe I should just stick with POC and forget he Fir arrows. I was just wanting a bit heavier, tougher arrow shaft to hunt with.

[varmint101]

Things do happen of course but I find it hard to believe an ASL is requiring that much heavier of a spine.  It sounds like a false weak but again, like you mentioned, everyone is different in their form, etc.  Hopefully trying a lighter tip will clear it up enough.  Is this your first ASL?  I know for myself my grip on the bow even changes arrow flight.  If I don't heel them correctly AND have a firm grip the arrows just don't fly right.  May be something to think about. 

[Riverrat43]

Thanks, I'll pay close attention to grip and form.

[Riverrat43]

Things do happen of course but I find it hard to believe an ASL is requiring that much heavier of a spine.  It sounds like a false weak but again, like you mentioned, everyone is different in their form, etc.  Hopefully trying a lighter tip will clear it up enough.  Is this your first ASL?  I know for myself my grip on the bow even changes arrow flight.  If I don't heel them correctly AND have a firm grip the arrows just don't fly right.  May be something to think about.
[/quote
You were correct. I switched to the 125 field tip and the nock was as far to the right as the 160 was to the left.

[Gordon Jabben]

I just put five inch feathers on them and I'm good to go with my asl's.  I do know all my arrows show stiff but it never seemed to be a problem and I can shoot a twenty or so spine difference. I feel I'm as accurate as the next guy.  I've never shot carbon but sometimes I think we over think wood.

[Riverrat43]

I also use 5 inch feathers on my arrows but I am nowhere close enough to begin shooting for group or accuracy.