Weak Spine Arrows With New Bow

[Orion]

Re the 500s.  Are they actually impacting to the right or are you going by orientation in the target?  Regardless.  Given your draw length, they're right on the edge.  You may need the 400s.

[Wudstix]

2117 spine @77# and would be on the upper end for 150 grain, but 30-31" arrow may smooth that out.  Might try 2215 and 2020 if they are available.
 

[Michpatriot]

You cut them too short..and it happens fast!! Now your smashing the riser and getting screwy arrow flight..might clean up with 220-240gr up front..next time maybe cut 1/8 " at a time if you can.. mine start behaving around 33"carbon length.I shoot black eagle vintage 350s on one of my bows..54# at the finger I draw 30+ and that have 165-170gr up front..125gr Top hat points with 44gr brass inserts the carbon tube length ends up 32-1\2---32-3\4..I like a long arrow..524gr all up flying weight.
Black Eagle spine chart online is not the same as on the box..kRaZy! I found they are a whole spine different depending on where you end up length and weight between the two charts..but the chart on the box is right on for me. I don't make changes based on knock left or right in the air..only in the bale..and if mine are close I also tune by twisting string..tighter twist=right Less twist=left..for a right handed shooter. Knock hi\lo adjustment is on the string Nock points for getting rid of the hop. This same bow and arrows tune perfect for me using a Abowyer 150gr two blade broad head and the black eagle aluminum 14gr insert..you can also try a looser nock to string fit..too tight can be nutty to tune with..

[Grumpyfoot]

So, I've been spending what little time have in the evening after work testing field point weights, different arrow spines, and looking up info on what could be going on. When I get home I only have about 30 minutes of descent light to work with, so this is a drawn out process.

To start with I've been looking at arrow spine charts. Easton's chart says the 2117 arrows I have are going to be too stiff at the length I want with 200gr. points. This makes sense, they are the first arrows I shot with this bow trying to tune it, and I do believe I was getting false weak readings. These are also the arrows that left the marks on my side plate. The Black Eagle chart says with the 200 gr. I want up front, at 30.5-31.5" long, I need a 300 spine. Black Eagle also says to measure the arrow from the nock throat to the tip of the point, that is confusing.

I have the Black Eagle test kit I bought when I was tuning my 40# Colt. They're already cut, but I figured I could play with point weight to see what would happen.
I tried 500 spines, which were constantly weak, I went as low as 100 gr. points, and never got them straight. I expected this.
I then went to 400 spine, I went as low as 125, and was still showing slightly weak, but not straight. I know these are TRUE weak readings, because the angle was getting better.
I then went back to the 350 spine, and I put a 300 gr. point in it. I figured with 300 if it is weak it should be a true reading. It hits the target straight on, there is the slightest bit of movement, but I can't tell if it's coming off the bow weak or strong, due to low light, but it is absolutely flying significantly straighter.

My next move is to shoot these 350's with 300gr. at 20 yards and look at the arrow flight in slow motion with my phone to see what's going on.

The arrows are 30.5" long, maybe a tad short, but if I can get these close, I think the 350's are what I need. I  know I will need to tune whatever shafts I I land on, and I will. I just don't want to spend the money on a test kit, when what I have should get me close enough, and I think I'm in the ball park.

My goal is to shoot 200 gr. up front, and I am surprised the 350 spines are looking like what I need so far.

All this said, I did mark the 400 gr. test arrow in 1/4" increments so I can use my phone in slow motion, shoot the arrow into the target a number of times, take an average, and get my actual draw length.

I will post my results as I get them. I do want to thank everyone for all the help, and advise. I'm learning alot.

[Grumpyfoot]

Joel, the nock fit the string good, that is a good point. What you have total arrow weight is the ball park I'm shooting for. Pun intended.

[Orion]

Glad to see you're getting closer.  I suggested 300 grains up front in my second post for the 350 shafts just to confirm your false weak finding.  You've confirmed that. 

I assumed from your first post, shooting 150 grain points, that that is the weight you wanted to arrive at.  But you're saying you want 200 grains up front.  That might work on the 350 shafts if you leave them full length.  But, if all your shafts are already shortened, it's heavier than you want.

Seems you have two options.  1. Go with the heavier front end weight on the existing 350 shafts, or 2) try the 400s with about 200 grains up front.  They both should fly good.  3. Of course, if you have full length 350 shafts, 200 grains up front might work for them. 

Keep us apprised.

[Grumpyfoot]

The 400's are too weak even with 125 grains, so they're out. I'm going to do more testing on the 350's, I'm pretty sure that's the spine.

I only have the one 350 from a test kit I bought for my other bow, and it is cut to 30.5". I'm sure the longer 350's will work between 150 and 200.
 

[Orion]

Though full length 350s will probably work, 400s (which are about 78#@28 inches) with 125-150 should also work.  Don't know why you're getting a weak reading.  Is your form good?  Might you be plucking?

[Grumpyfoot]

Definitely not plucking. Maybe release? I don’t know. It will always be a work in progress, I’m just trying to get what works.

[Kelly]

A 350 shaft with 300 up front should be the same as a 400 with 200 up front, providing they are the same length.

[Grumpyfoot]

For some reason or another, I'm not getting that. 350 with 300 appears to be close to good. 400 with 125 still shows obviously weak. each arrow shot 5 times. Both shafts cut to 30.5"

[Undomesticated]

For some reason or another, I'm not getting that. 350 with 300 appears to be close to good. 400 with 125 still shows obviously weak. each arrow shot 5 times. Both shafts cut to 30.5"

Hello, Grumpyfoot.

A persistent “weak” arrow indication even with arrows that should be plenty stiff is often indicative of a collapse (even if slight).

Without watching you shoot, this would be my guess. It would be helpful if you could get a few more photos or video of you shooting. Based on the the images you posted, I would say you aren’t quite in alignment. This leads me to believe more strongly that your problem is indeed collapse related.

It might be time to hit the blank bale and work on form and then get back to tuning.

[Grumpyfoot]

You may be right. I'll set up the camera this evening if there is enough daylight when I get home.

[Wudstix]

I'm by no means a carbon arrow expert.  I used to shoot 400 Beman 29" arrows with 160 grain points from a 63/4# MOAB my draw for that bow was right at 28".  I moved to 340 Beman when I bumped to 190 grains or more.  Now am messing with CE Heritage 350 @30.25" with @300 grains up front.  Bow is D/R longbow at 66/7# @28"ish.  On both these bows I am 27 3/8" to the pivot point.  Also, shoot these through a Big River Kodiak clone, 65#.  As you can tell from my handle I much prefer wood arrows.  Bow weight plus 15# spine, to account for 160 gr + point weight, over 28" arrow, and FF string.  DONE.  I'll continue to follow and perhaps learn a thing or two.  Eventually, I may have to go to aluminum and/or carbon shafting. 
 

[Grumpyfoot]

Update:  So I marked an arrow and shot it 7 times, filming myself in slow motion, and viewing it zoomed in. My draw length is 28.75" confirmed. All 7 shots, the arrow stopped at the back of the bow at the same mark. So that problem is solved. Thanks for the tip Kelly, I wouldn't have guessed it would be that different.

On the subjects of plucking and collapse:  Again I videoed myself drawing and releasing 7 times. I am trying to figure out how t upload a video from my phone, but haven't figured it out (iphone). I am absolutely Not plucking the string. As far as collapse, on one of the shots it looks like I moved my head ever so slightly just before release, and I might have lowered the string, Might Have. If I did it was very slight, and almost unnoticeable. The other 6 releases, no movement is noticeable at all before release. So I will say no collapse.

As far as spine: Kelly said 400 spine with 200gr. is the same as 350 spine with 300gr. I don't know, could be. What I do know after about 20-30 shots is a 30.5" 400 spine arrow with 125gr. is hitting the target at very close to the same angle as the 30.5" 350 spine arrow with 300gr. Both weak.

[Undomesticated]

Update:  So I marked an arrow and shot it 7 times, filming myself in slow motion, and viewing it zoomed in. My draw length is 28.75" confirmed. All 7 shots, the arrow stopped at the back of the bow at the same mark. So that problem is solved. Thanks for the tip Kelly, I wouldn't have guessed it would be that different.

On the subjects of plucking and collapse:  Again I videoed myself drawing and releasing 7 times. I am trying to figure out how t upload a video from my phone, but haven't figured it out (iphone). I am absolutely Not plucking the string. As far as collapse, on one of the shots it looks like I moved my head ever so slightly just before release, and I might have lowered the string, Might Have. If I did it was very slight, and almost unnoticeable. The other 6 releases, no movement is noticeable at all before release. So I will say no collapse.

As far as spine: Kelly said 400 spine with 200gr. is the same as 350 spine with 300gr. I don't know, could be. What I do know after about 20-30 shots is a 30.5" 400 spine arrow with 125gr. is hitting the target at very close to the same angle as the 30.5" 350 spine arrow with 300gr. Both weak.

What do you mean by “no movement?”

I would suggest that if there truly is no visible movement, you are in fact collapsing to a small degree. There are some archers that shoot well like that, but they are anomalies.
I *think* you are short of alignment (based on limited information). This is going to give a sloppy release. Your weak wrist position displayed in your photo only contributes to this.

Here are things to try:
*Raise your nock point to start. 5/8-3/4”. Re-try what you are doing.
*Raise your brace height. The Super Grizz likes a high BH
*Work on your alignment. Proper alignment should come from scapular rotation, but for now, just focus on drawing and anchoring to a deeper location on your face.
*Work on your dynamic release. There should be movement visible on video. NEVER STOP PULLING!

I am mostly convinced your tuning issue is related to your release in some way. We just have to iron it out.

[Undomesticated]

What is your brace height and nock point set at currently, by the way?

[Grumpyfoot]

Your points about release issues was my original concern. That's why I started this post to begin with. I understand it is impossible to troubleshoot mechanical issues using typed words on a screen. I will try to get the video loaded up after I get off work tonight. I am very appreciative of your time and effort in my search for correction.

What I mean by no movement is what I said, no movement before release. My elbow is not moving forward, nothing is moving forward. Upon release there is movement. At full draw, I hit my natural wall, my shoulder blade is pulled to the center of my back as my shoulder will allow. The tip of my pointer finger is in the corner of my mouth, and the lower corner of my jaw bone is nestled between the two knuckles of my thumb. On release, I pull my shoulder blade further to the center of my back, which rotates my shoulder and elbow towards the middle of my back. As I do this it pulls the string out of my fingers. I focus very hard on not letting go of the string, I just stop holding it.

That is the best way I can explain it. Again, i will try to get the video loaded, it's worth more than 1,000 useless words.

[Undomesticated]

Do you know what you currently have your nock point and brace are set at? You haven’t told us. It could be as simple as that.

When in doubt, you can’t really go wrong increasing both. I used to have a super grizzly. I think it tuned at 3/4” nock point and 8.5” brace (but ai shoot 3-under). It is a fairly short bow for your draw length, it is reasonable that they are “finicky.”

You could also try putting a $5 Bear Weatherrest on it. Bear doesn’t sculpt their shelves to minimize contact.

[Undomesticated]

Your description of your shot sounds good, but sometimes we do things we don’t realize, too.
Is your bow arm strong?
Holding tension 2-3 seconds after the shot?
Possibly torquing the string at full draw?

Like I said, to me, it looks like you are drawing a bit short for your body. Your wrist looks bent inward slightly, but I can’t tell for sure from the photo. This would be my recommendation, in this order:

1) Confirm nock point height. If it is less than 3/4”, start raising it in 1/8” increments until you get to 3/4”.
2) Confirm brace height. If less than 8.75”, start increasing it by 1/4” at a time while re-testing.
3) Start addressing your shooting. Stop with the corner of mouth anchor. Start moving rearward from your current anchor, one tooth at a time. You might be amazed what happens when you find perfect alignment.

Also, are you using a double nock set? (One below, one above the arrow?)