New ASL Bowyer Questions

[Guster]

Hello all!

I am a long time lurker and reader of Tradgang threads but this will be my first post. I love building things with my hands and I fought off the urge to build strings, arrows, and quivers for as long as I could before giving in and well I finally gave in to my urge to make my own bows. I purchased a Bingham longbow form kit back in the fall but things have been crazy and I hadn't been able to get around to building the form yet. I just finished my second read through of Stephen Graf's book on making ASL's and I'm gonna follow his plans in the back of the book for my first one (on a straight form). I will be reaching out to Kenny for lams, glass, and riser wood as soon as I figure out all the details. Once I get back from my work trip later this month I'm going to start construction and I had a few questions for y'all that I haven't been able to find answers to elsewhere.

1) I am planning to model my handles after more of a traditional longbow grip like the JD Berry heritage (no shelf 3/4" wide and 2" deep). Do I need to consider using G10 or micarta if I were to make a heavier bow in this style or is wood such as bocote strong enough given the handle design?

2) Graf recommends two lamination of .195" for a 51 lb @ 28" bow, however, elsewhere in the book he recommends more laminations. I've read conflicting information on more vs less lams. Specifically regarding ASLs is there an upper limit to thickness for a single lam or is it just trial and error at each goal bow weight for how many lams I should be using?

3) When joining laminations together I was planning to sand each butt at a 45 degree angle and use superglue to join them. During the glue up should I trim the laminations on each end to stagger the joints or is that step unnecessary when making ASls?

Also any advice anyone has for a new bowyer would be appreciated as I am sure I have no idea what I'm in store for. I have already accepted that it will never be just one build and I've been spending my work days daydreaming of my future creations, don't tell my boss . Thank you in advance, the wealth of information on this site has already aided me greatly during my trad journey!

[Kirkll]

When ever starting a new adventure, keep an open mind. There is as much philosophy out there as there is facts. I think Kenny will get you off on the right track with materials and tapers for your first go round. I’d recommend starting out with a 68” length, and can shorten it a bit if it come out too light. 

There is a lot to learn building bows, but it can be very satisfying after ya start getting the hang of it…. Personally…. I would recommend going with the binghams plan over a straight form ASL style… A lot less hand shock with more preload , or tension on the string at brace with the Binghams long bow.  That was my first bow plan I used too, and I still have the bow….    Kirk

[Longcruise]

I'm going to try to attach a pdf of the Bingham draw weight chart.  If you meet specs, it's dead on.  Unless you use 1.75" form and stock you will have some difficulty hitting an exact 1.5" width at the fades.  But, you can easily calculate the difference in finished weight since reducing width is linear.  Reduce width 5% and reduce draw weight 5%.

1) I am planning to model my handles after more of a traditional longbow grip like the JD Berry heritage (no shelf 3/4" wide and 2" deep). Do I need to consider using G10 or micarta if I were to make a heavier bow in this style or is wood such as bocote strong enough given the handle design?

No, you will e fine with reommended riser woods.  Bocote is a good one but that's just my preference.  Avoid walnut unless going for a light draw weight.

2) Graf recommends two lamination of .195" for a 51 lb @ 28" bow, however, elsewhere in the book he recommends more laminations. I've read conflicting information on more vs less lams. Specifically regarding ASLs is there an upper limit to thickness for a single lam or is it just trial and error at each goal bow weight for how many lams I should be using?

When I build a 50# +/- I use four to five lams.  I have seen some bows built with two lams and if Graf suggests it i'd not disagree but as you noted, he also recommends more lams. So...........???

On the subject of lams, a common problem that first time asl builders have is placing a thick lam under the belly glass. It can be done but things must be perfect to get good glue lines when compressing a thick lam under the belly glass.  I like to stay with a .030 to .035 under the belly glass.  You can build with no lams under the belly glass as well I just like the look of a lam under there.

3) When joining laminations together I was planning to sand each butt at a 45 degree angle and use superglue to join them. During the glue up should I trim the laminations on each end to stagger the joints or is that step unnecessary when making ASls?

45 degrees is not enough!  I struggled with joining lams until Kennym suggested his method which is basically placing the lams back to back and grinding them with a fixed angle jig first one side and then the other.  That way minor variations in the angle across the two is still a match.  I grind mine so that I have about a 3/4" surface in the length of the grind.  Lay them down against a straight edge for alignment with a piece of wax paper under neath apply glue and match the surfaces then fold the wax paper over and lay a small block of wood on top and clamp down tight.  Don't rush!  I don't stagger the joints but it couldn't hurt.

When you order from Kenny, ask a lot of questions.  His willingness to work with you is far far beyond what Bingham did.

[Longcruise]

Here's attempt to attach:

Bow-Draw-Weight-Chart.pdf

[Longcruise]

Not sure that worked. but maybe this will

68” Longbow
35#.............................. .344”
40#.............................. .359”
45#.............................. .374”
50#.............................. .389”
55#.............................. .404”
60#.............................. .418”
65#.............................. .427”
70#.............................. .435”

[Stagmitis]

Guster, what weight ASL are you thinking about?

[Kirkll]

Just a friendly little tip here.... if you use super glue to splice laminations, that is fine.... BUT... never mix super glue and wet epoxy at the same time of you'll have a smoking science project on your hands.... 

Years ago i tried using a spot of super glue on some power lams to keep them from shifting during my epoxy lay up.... WRONG!!!!  She started smoking...

[Guster]

Kirkll, thank you for the tips I definitely don't want to turn my first glue up into a science project!

Longcruise, I appreciate you attaching the stack charts from Binghams. It is a real shame that they aren't around anymore and I'm glad I ordered my form kit before they closed. I think I get what you're saying about joining laminations but I might have to ask some clarifications when I talk to Kenny.

Stagmitis, I am planning to aim for around 50 lb @ 28" for my first bow but in the future I want to make bows around 75 lb since that is what I normally shoot.

[Stagmitis]

Guster this will get you around 55-57# and you can do a light trap and final sand  to ease it down to 50#- If you dont want to trap go .490


  68" Long
  14" handle
 .500 stack at fades......50 glass,belly and back (clear glass is always slower)
 .110-12  wide at fades
 .480-500 tip width
  A .006 total taper will get you started

I prefer 4 lams on all my bows. Ive built single lams,2,4 and 5. The more lams the stronger the bow is but 5 is overkill. With fewer lams the limb bend and tiller has to be dead nuts for longevity in the bow not that you wouldnt strive for that in other configurations!

Good Luck!!!

[Susquehannariverarcher]

Not to high jack this post... but aren't ASLs typically pretty narrow 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 or so right?

What's the best way to narrow a bow up. I've seen some guys use table saws. Is that an OK method or is it better to grind it down on edge sander or drum sander?

[Longcruise]

Sort of gets into an area that is open to interpretation.  In the Hill style 1" or a  bit more is typical.  But then there's the arguments that go on and on as to what falls under the definition of ASL.  Hill, having invented the term, meant it as he built them.

But, to be fair, it has come to mean long bows flat to somewhat reflexed.   Usually 64 to 70 inches NTN. 

I build one style that is 68 to 70 inch and a full 1.5 at the fades and maybe even a little wider.   It  width tapers much like a pyramid bow down to narrow tips.  18 inch riser.  It was my idea of mods to the Bingham 68" long bow.  I still call it an ASL.  I'm probably fairly open to criticism on that score!

For the OP, the Bingham draw/stack chart is for 68" and with an 18" riser.

[Kirkll]

Once you get the hang of this, and get your moves down Pat for lay up. Then you can start tweaking your design to get higher performance and less hand shock by pushing the working portion out a bit further with longer riser fades and power lams that extend those fades even further out.  I use a 20-22” riser with long lean fades, and a 30” double ended power lam. But…. I  also changed the shape of the form with a lot with more reflex shape……

 it’s never ending… you can have a ball trying different things building long bows…. Then you might even want to dive into the recurve rabbit hole.

[Susquehannariverarcher]

Ok. Tha is for the info. I'm not looking for necessarily an ASL style bow just a skinny one. But I feel like I'm straying from what this thread is about. And will start my own in the future!

[kennym]

I'm a D/R guy but you can see a lam joining method about 11 pics down here on this build.

A lot of things are same on different style bows.

Have fun , take it slow and think every move thru!

https://www.kennysarchery.com/bow-build