Self Bow Tips - Before or after Tiller?

[Burnsie]

I've done pin nocks, self nocks, various horn overlays, hardwood and G10 overlays...etc.
I always pretty much complete my tips before I tiller, I like having a finished nock when stringing and unstring the bow during the tillering process.  Others say, wait until the end when you are almost finished with the bow, so if the bow breaks you haven't wasted all that time on the nocks for nothing.  Point taken, but I actually enjoy shaping and forming the nocks and have got to the point where it doesn't take all the long. Plus, I find it trickier to glue on any tip overlay material over top of temporary nock grooves and then shaping the nocks/tips afterwards.  Couple questions:
- What is your preferred method - complete limb tips before or after tiller?
- Any tricks to putting overlays on when the grooves are already filed.
- Has anyone ever came up with a tillering string that has like leather cups on the ends that could be slipped over the tips, and skip filing the string grooves entirely until the bow is completely tillered?  - Thinking out loud.

[Pat B]

When I'm building a selfbow I draw it out on a full width stave, cut out the side and back profile. Then work it toward floor tiller stage. For nocks I make temporary nocks by using a chain saw file and file grooves straight down back to belly. I make them at least as deep as the string is thick. You can tiller a bow without finishing the tips or handle area as long as the fades advance with the limbs. I will sometimes reduce the tips to 1" to 3/4" wide. I leave the tips and handle area wide until first low brace so I can see how the string tracks under stress. By leaving the handle and tips wide and if the string tracking is off center I can adjust that by removing wood from one side or the other of the handle and tips. Once I'm at low brace and have adjusted the string tracking I then reduce the tips to almost the ultimate  width. I like to keep the handle wide so I can clamp the bow securely without damaging the wood at the handle. Even in my bendy handle bows I wait until the end of the tillering process then shape the handle area and tiller the bend back into the handle so I can just feel the handle give a bit as I hit full draw.
 In most cases and with most bow woods tip overlays are mostly cosmetic, not necessary. Even with softer woods like yew or ERC overlays are not necessary.
 You can use a bow stringer with leather tips as a tillering string as long as it it strong enough and will safely and securely hold the tips while tillering.

[Walt Francis]

I wait to put the tip overlays on until perfectly tillered to 23-24” at the desired weight.  This is when everything on my bows gets it final shape, heat adjustments, or the tips get recurved.  Getting everything the way I want it to look at this stage allows for adjustments and corrections in the tiller without missing weight.  I seldom miss making weight on a selfbow (Heck, I miss weight on more of my glass bows than my selfbows.). 

[Mo_coon-catcher]

I run a tillering string just like you asked. I had it at major last week and the people that used it really like it. Start with an extra long sting with a loop on each end. Add a metal ring in the middle for easy adjustments of length. And the cups are sewn with a channel on one end to feel a dynema loop through. The fold the leather to make a cup where the dynema cord is about 3/4-1” from the end so the placement will be close to nock distance. I attach it to the long string with the dynema cord in a soft shaft way. I’ll take pictures when I get home from work tonight. The heaviest bow I’ve used it on so far is 100# with no issues.

Then I don’t have to cut nocks or align until the last few inches of tiller. But the easiest way to recut grooves after using temporary grooves is to cut them the same way you intend to in the end. I do it all the time. There’s usually some remnant of the temporary nocks after I apply overlays and finish shaping the tips, and I use those as a guide for where to cut the final nocks.

Kyle

[Mo_coon-catcher]

I realized my tiller string was still in the truck from Mojam. I need to replace the main string soon but it’s still holding. But here’s better pictures of the cups.

Kyle

[Burnsie]

Thanks Kyle!
That is exactly what I was thinking of.
How do you utilize the ring for shortening and lenghtening.

[Mo_coon-catcher]

Not a problem. All you have to do is wrap the string around the ring to shorten the string and unwind to lengthen. You want to make sure the ring is off to the side since you want to hook onto the string itself not the ring when pulling on the tiller tree.

Kyle

[dbeaver]

Kyle i stole your idea but i did mine with a locking carabiner i had lying around from climbing.  works pretty well. i never noticed your leather pockets though, time to bite off ya one more time.

[Kirkll]

When I'm building a selfbow I draw it out on a full width stave, cut out the side and back profile. Then work it toward floor tiller stage. For nocks I make temporary nocks by using a chain saw file and file grooves straight down back to belly. I make them at least as deep as the string is thick. You can tiller a bow without finishing the tips or handle area as long as the fades advance with the limbs. I will sometimes reduce the tips to 1" to 3/4" wide. I leave the tips and handle area wide until first low brace so I can see how the string tracks under stress. By leaving the handle and tips wide and if the string tracking is off center I can adjust that by removing wood from one side or the other of the handle and tips. Once I'm at low brace and have adjusted the string tracking I then reduce the tips to almost the ultimate  width. I like to keep the handle wide so I can clamp the bow securely without damaging the wood at the handle. Even in my bendy handle bows I wait until the end of the tillering process then shape the handle area and tiller the bend back into the handle so I can just feel the handle give a bit as I hit full draw.
 In most cases and with most bow woods tip overlays are mostly cosmetic, not necessary. Even with softer woods like yew or ERC overlays are not necessary.
 You can use a bow stringer with leather tips as a tillering string as long as it it strong enough and will safely and securely hold the tips while tillering.

Hey Pat…. Why would you want a bendy handle riser? I’m sincerely interested what advantage there is to this? 

Building fiberglass and carbon backed bows, I’ve always went to great efforts to eleminate riser deflection completely.      Thanks, Kirk

[Pat B]

Kirk, bendy handle bows spread the strains along the entire bow. With less strong woods or woods that are susceptible to maladies, like locust is to fretting, a bendy handle can relieve the strains. Bendy handle bows are also traditional through out history, ie. the English and Welsh war bows which bend is the arch of a circle and the Native American horse bows. I would imagine that the first bows were all bendy handles. It was a guy in England(I think) way back when named James Buchanan(the finest bowyer in London, "Longbow" by Robert Hardy) that developed the "Buchanan dip", Making a stiff handle with fades into the limbs. If I'm not mistaken before this most bows had bendy handles.
 
 "The Buchanan dips is one such area (also known by the more modern term of "fadeout"). The dips are that transition area that graduates movement from static handle toward bending limb. It is the area on the belly side where the handle dips down to the working limb. The dips must be accomplished with much finesse. Make them too long in relation to bow limb length and you place unnecessary strain upon your limbs. Make them too abrupt or dramatic and you risk increasing hand shock or creating a hinge from a concentrated compression point. Make one longer or weaker than another, and the bow will not balance in your bow hand as you draw it." (Dean Torges, The Bowyers Edge")

 Also, Kirk, we are talking about wood bow building as far as bendy handle bows are concerned.