Tuning issue

[buckeyebowhunter]

I've run into an issue getting my broadheads to tune. I'm shooting a 50# recurve, 30" arrows with 200 grains up front. So far I've tried 2018s, 2117s, and 2216s. They fly okay bare shaft and good fletched with field points. But when I put my snuffers on the end they are all kicking nock up and left immediately after leaving the shelf and then correcting themselves and hitting where I'm aiming.

This little kick is driving me bonkers. I've even tried an elevated rest and get the exact same results. Any suggestions? Thank you.

[Even]

What fletching setup are you using, and what length are the feathers?   

[buckeyebowhunter]

5.5" shield cut. Left wing. Plenty of helical.

[buckeyebowhunter]

Another thing that I've noticed is that the kick seems to be exaggerated with even the slightest bit of cant in the bow. Would this be an indicator of a form issue rather than a spine issue?

[kennym]

You might try cock feather in , the hen on mine hit outside of rest sometimes with cock feather out.

Any wear on your rest on outside edge ?

Thats all I got for now...

[buckeyebowhunter]

Kenny yeah there is some wear on the rest on the belly side of bow. I was under the impression that perhaps the 2216 were giving me some false weak due to stiffness, hitting the sight window there and then deflecting left inducing the kick. However the 2216 seem to fly the best with broadheads 

[kennym]

I had to look this up, but 2216 is pretty stiff, even for a 50# recurve. Got any heavier points you could try?

Shaft   Spine Size (inches)   Weight (gr/in)
2216            0.375                          12.03

Of course center cut makes a huge diff too.

Just throwin stuff out there!

[buckeyebowhunter]

You are correct Kenny, I would've thought too stiff as well. I don't consider myself great at bare shaft tuning but I'd say I'm fair at it. The thing that is puzzling is that all the shafts bare shaft nock left.

When I get time I'm going to try 2016s maybe I'm over spine. Or maybe I just have awful form.

[kennym]

It can drive ya nuts, but when you get there it's great. Broadheads fly great and you are more accurate.

I shoot 400 spine carbon with 200 up front 46 @28 drawn 28, but carbons are prob smaller than 2216s and my bow is cut 1/8 past center(at least)

[Archie]

You are correct Kenny, I would've thought too stiff as well. I don't consider myself great at bare shaft tuning but I'd say I'm fair at it. The thing that is puzzling is that all the shafts bare shaft nock left.

When I get time I'm going to try 2016s maybe I'm over spine. Or maybe I just have awful form.

Is this your only bow or setup?  Does your form affect other setups as well?  Also... seems like 2117's and 2216's would be stiff, assuming 50# at 28", with you drawing 28", shooting right-handed.  Seems like 200 grains should weaken a 2018 enough.  What's your brace height?

I've been tuning a couple new setups this week.  I'm tuned to:
175 grains on 32.5" 2216's, drawing 30", shooting a short recurve that's 63# @ 30".
175 grains on 33" 2117's, drawing 30", shooting a short recurve that's 58# @ 30".

[buckeyebowhunter]

I haven't really messed with any of my other bows, and I can't say for sure that the bow/arrow combos aren't tuned, other than that slight little kick when shooting broadheads. Like I mentioned it seems to only be a broadhead, and even more so when the bow is canted. I like to can't my bows just slightly.

Gonna keep tinkering...

[buckeyebowhunter]

I should have mentioned the bow is home made,  brace is set to 7.75"

[Orion]

Has your brace height dropped?  A brace height that's too low will cause the arrows to slap off the riser, often resulting in an arrow that kicks.  Likewise, check your nock point, If it slipped down a bit it might be too low.  That, too will cause the arrow to slap the shelf and kick s it leaves the bow.  If the brace height drops enough, it changes the nock point height. 

[buckeyebowhunter]

Thanks Orion. I will play with brace some tomorrow. One thing with bare shafts, at least for me,  is always get some degree of nock high. No matter how low my nock point I always get some nock high.

I will be honest, as long as I've been doing this, I've never really understood how brace height effects the arrow tune. I've always just set it around 7.75-8" for my recurves and called it good.

[Archie]

I always used to have nock high, no matter what.  The game changer for me was when someone who knew what they were doing asked me if I had a callous on my 4th finger, string hand.  I said yes, I always do.  He said I have a high elbow when I draw, causing my string hand to torque on the arrow downward, causing it to rebound off the shelf.  After switching to a rest (which I now use on every recurve & longbow), and working on holding mostly with my 2nd and 3rd fingers, that has been corrected.

As for brace height, I was told that a high brace makes a shorter power stroke, thus imparting less energy into the arrow and making it stiffer.  And shallower brace height keeps the string attached to the arrow a little longer, causing it to hang on a little longer and not flex freely until it comes off the string.  I am no authority on these things though.

[Even]

What I find odd is that you only get the kick out with broadheads... seems like you are fine with field points.   

That would lead me to think that your form is probably fine, unless you change something when going from field point to broadhead, in your form.  Which I can't see.

I'd think about anything you possibly change in your form with a broadhead on, or some weird interaction with the broadhead/air/rotation/weight, where it pulls slightly offline until your fletch straightens it out.

Any possibility the broadheads are off in weight, or much heavier or lighter than the field points you use?  That might give that kick before your 5.5"s caught it.

[buckeyebowhunter]

Dave,  broadheads are all big snuffers, they range from 200 grains to around 190. My field points are 200.

After messing around with the elevated rest some more,  I was able to get the broadheads to fly very true 90% of the time. After some tweaks with feathers orientation. I still get that occasional kick though, which is leading me to believe it has to be form.

I still am not sure as to why the canted bow seems to exaggerate the issue, but I like to be able to cant bow on shorter shots Especially 

[buckeyebowhunter]

For anyone that was following, it was apparently a form issue entirely.

I shifted my anchor point about a half inch lower on my cheek and the tail kick was completely gone. Bare shafts flying much better now as well.

I am assuming I was inducing some sort of torque on the string with the old anchor point and therefore creating the tail kick which was amplified with the broadheads.

Thanks to everyone that helped with advice.