First asl build

[Gavin_benton]

I am looking to build an asl bow
69" ntn
55@30" 
1 1/8" at the fades tapering to 1/2" at the nocks
3 yew core lams with .005 taper
15" riser
.050 glass back and belly
2" of backset
.500 limb thickness

Does this sound like i correctly configured setup? I am looking to make a smooth drawing bow with good cast

[Crooked Stic]

I have no idea of your stack. Most times you got to build one then go off it to get your weight right. Don't think you need .050 glass either for 55 lbs.

[kennym]

Gavin,

If you get text pics, send me a text at 660 734 2113

I may have a cheat sheet that might help.

[KenH]

"Limb Thickness" is a meaningless measurement.  *Where* along the limbs, betweeen the fades and the tips are you measuring????   We use Stack Thickness -- the combined thicknesses of all the lams before tapering and shaping.
 
As mentioned, you don't need, or even want, .05 glass for that draw weight of bow...

[Gavin_benton]

So my understanding is that you measure stack thickness at the end of the riser fades. So with the glass are you recommending that I go with .040 glass and increase the core thickness? What are the negative effects of using the .050 glass with thinner core lams vs .040 glass

[Kirkll]

Hey Gavin,   Hope you enjoy your new adventure.  As far as measuring stack height or limb thickness goes. Different bowyers measure their laminations in different spots. The “Stack height” for the limb on a TD bow is typically measured at the butt end of all the laminations without the wedge including the glass. I have no idea where they measure them on a one piece bow, but I bet it varies from one guy to the next.

I personally like to measure all my stack heights 10” up from the butt, which does bring it closer to the fades. I use 30” material going into the form on TD limbs.

On my one piece long bow, my stock is 70” long going into the form and I measure my stack height 20” from the tip on each end…. But….Each guy picks where he measures the stack height and just stays consistent with it until he gets enough bows built and has logged the data in his log book to know what draw weights vs stack height works.

Now I don’t build ASL long bows, but I can safely say that an .005 FT rate might be a bit much. I use an .004 FT on my long bows. But…. My risers are long with skinny fades, and I use power lams to push the fades out further. So mine is kind of a compound FT……

Good luck, and have fun…. Kirk

Btw…. .050 glass really isn’t needed until you start getting up over 70-80# limbs. It adds too muc( mass weight with the extra glass thickness.     

[Longcruise]

So my understanding is that you measure stack thickness at the end of the riser fades. So with the glass are you recommending that I go with .040 glass and increase the core thickness? What are the negative effects of using the .050 glass with thinner core lams vs .040 glass

If you measure stack at the butts you can do repeatable lay ups.   With an ASL  that's convenient because you may want to do future builds off the same form but with differing riser lengths.  That way you are calculating only for the riser lengths.  There is no advantage to calculating stacks up and down the limb for variables in design.

I agree with Kitk on that .005 taper.  That might lead to a somewhat soft limb. 

[Kirkll]

.05 taper rate = Whippy tips… but pushing your fades out further with less over all limb  taper, and keeping the limbs narrow can do wonders for performance.

But getting  good performance from these ASL designs with no reflex to the limbs is really tough to do until ya start getting over 70#…. Not enough preload on the limbs to increase the string tension at brace, and stop the forward limb travel.

[Stagmitis]

Kirk how do you know .005 total taper causes a whippy ended bow? And why do you think straight grips are “heeled” on an asl?

[Kirkll]

Kirk how do you know .005 total taper causes a whippy ended bow? And why do you think straight grips are “heeled” on an asl?

Experience

[Stagmitis]

“Now I don’t build ASL long bows, but I can safely say that an .005 FT rate might be a bit much.”

You yourself said you don’t build ASL’s. So how is it possible that you know how a .005 taper reacts to limb bend?

[Kirkll]

“Now I don’t build ASL long bows, but I can safely say that an .005 FT rate might be a bit much.”

You yourself said you don’t build ASL’s. So how is it possible that you know how a .005 taper reacts to limb bend?

I said "I do not build ASL long bows".... I didn't say i haven't built ALS bows before.  Big difference...

Honestly... I never really liked the characteristics of a low pre load design of those straight lay up styles or worse yet a string follow bow.  You can't get the hand shock out of them, or a good energy transfer until you are up over 70#. Even Howard hill figured out he liked more backset, or reflex in the bow prior to stringing it, and he shot higher draw weights than most archers today do.

To each his own..   

Btw...They do make good spears for bow fishing if you get a pointy tip on them.

Now Here is a replica of a HH bow i called my Boot Hill Express. This baby has much higher preload and much higher performance.

[Stagmitis]

First of all that is NOT a replica of a hill bow. Please quit claiming that it is. It’s a bastard design and NOTHING close to what Hill built. Not by a mile.

And what makes you think that well built hill bows are slow, have low preload, no backset and gobs of hand shock? And why do you think that you “ heel” a straight grip?

The reality is you don’t because you have never built a real one nor have any experience shooting them.
 
Like you said, to each his own is a valid point-

So why continue to offer advice and bash hill bows when clearly it’s not your cup of tea?   It’s insulting……

[JDBerry]

I feel I have built a few ASLs, me myself I would say Stagmites is pretty much on the money about the ASL.   OE

[Kirkll]

First of all that is NOT a replica of a hill bow. Please quit claiming that it is. It’s a bastard design and NOTHING close to what Hill built. Not by a mile.

And what makes you think that well built hill bows are slow, have low preload, no backset and gobs of hand shock? And why do you think that you “ heel” a straight grip?

The reality is you don’t because you have never built a real one nor have any experience shooting them.
 
Like you said, to each his own is a valid point-

So why continue to offer advice and bash hill bows when clearly it’s not your cup of tea?   It’s insulting……

I built a bow that came out of that same form and shaped the grip just like the HH design and took it to a shoot in Colorado where they had a good sized Howard Hill club in attendance...  I HAVE shot a lot of those bows, and most of them kicked like mules...and ....have photos side by side with a howard hill bow  that you couldn't see the difference when strung....

I put that bow in a lot of ASL fans hands too.

The complaints i got from the HH club members was, "It doesn't have that Thump to it."  (no hand shock) And "its shooting the arrows too fast"     but the biggest turn off was when they took the string off and saw the reflex built into the limbs. Nope! they were not having it at all.   

This is actually a very good shooting design and only has an ,002 FT

I'm not bashing the design... i said i don't build them, and i do not care for them at all for good reason.

I say the same thing about trucks.... I don't care for the small light weight pick up trucks. i want a truck that can carry a load, tow a big boat, and have some horse power under the hood instead of a squirrel cage.

I also know the Howard Hill fan clubs are huge, and the popularity of the straight lay up ASL design mystifies me.   You guys can have em...    Kirk

[Kirkll]

I'm going to add a side note here.... I sincerely apologize if i have offended any Howard Hill fans, or ASL fans out there.... This is just my opinion...Take it for what it's worth.

But i've built a lot of bows and prototyped a lot of different designs over the the years. I fully understand how these bows work, how the energy is stored, and what it takes to transfer that energy to the arrow shafts. and am mindful of all the different attributes of different limb designs. it's not all about speed.... but a well balanced bow with no hand shock typically results in higher performance.  There are many things that can and will effect performance. Pre load and limb travel is a huge part of it.   But ... there are mitigating circumstances where long bows with a full bend to the limbs with lower preload can shoot really heavy arrows at heavier draw weights much better than lightweight arrows using the same design at lower draw weights....   There are tons of contributing factors to explore.......  Been there.. done that, burned the tee shirt.

If you guys want to build ASL bows, thats cool.  I'll quit commenting on these threads... Once again my apology for stepping on any toes....   Kirk

[Roy from Pa]

I am glad you guys discussed this civilly...

Thanks...

[Crooked Stic]

 

[Pat B]

Gosh, Roy, you're no fun! 

[Roy from Pa]

Pat ya old coot, don't get me started:)
LMAO