serious tuning help needed for my new Hill

[brackshooter]

Just got my new Hill Wesley yesterday.  I have spent about 3 hours trying to get an arrow to fly from this thing, to no avail. I have tried beman 400s, 340s and 300s, as well as 2117s, with point weights of 250-100 grains.  I have never had this much trouble with any bow in my life!  I draw approx 30", my bow is about 68#@my draw length.  I shoot a 31.5" arrow, 14 strand Ts1 string with llama wool silencers.  I LOVE this bow, but its driving me crazy!  Any ideas?      

[JRY309]

What kind of problems are you having? I have 3 Hill's and was able to tune them quite easliy.Have you tried some 2020's,they have a slightly weaker spine then the arrows you mentioned.I find on my Hill's a slightly weaker spine then I'm used to seems to put me right in,but then I only draw 27".With your longer draw you could try maybe a 2020,Hill's are cut a bit off center maybe an 1/8" or slightly more.You can also check on the  HowardHillLongbowmen.com site there might be some more tuning help or insights.

[brackshooter]

I havent tried 2020s yet, trying to avoid buying anymore shafts, since I have so many.  But I will try them if I have to .  Anyone one else?

[Shawn Leonard]

Try the 400s with 250 on them. Them, I would think they would work. The others even with 350 or more may be too stiff. The 400s may need 275 or so. Shawn

[TSP]

Can you post pics or a video of your shooting?  Sometimes the problem is with form, not with the arrow.  

Hills perform well and feel better in the hand if you cant them some (for better alignment, not necessarily to see the target better as often thought) and hold them more from the side of the grip, not pushing into the the front with the web of your hand as if it was a recurve.  They do very well with a strong (don't baby it) side-of-handle, in-your palm type of hold...some people call it a "suitcase grip".  Like you'd grip a heavy suitcase when lifting it from the floor.    

If you are expereinced with basic Hill form (as above) and are sure form isn't the problem, you could try a 31" 2117 or a 70-75# wood arrow with a 125 gr. pt.  Either combo should be in the ballpark for a bow drawn to 68#.  As far as carbons with heavy points on a Hill bow...no comment.

[sagebrush]

I would try what Shawn said. I think you are too stiff. Try weighting the tip a bunch more first before buying arrows. Gary

[Orion]

Have you shot Hills before?  They pretty much demand a low wrist hold, particularly with a heavy weight bow such as yours.  They're also very light in the hand.  Very easy to stray from the target.  How long is your bow?

[brackshooter]

I dont think my form is too bad, I do cant the bow and my release is ok I think.  My bow is 68" long, and I have been using a low wrist grip, which is really all you can use with a straight grip like I have on mine.  I am not experiencing any of the so called handshock normally associated with Hills either.  I will continue to try other ideas as well.

brack

[Steve Crowl]

Dick in Seattle can put you on the right path if you can pull him away from his coffee and pipe.  

[laddy]

Have you tried shooting one of the arrows you have with say a two or three inch shorter draw to check if you are underspined.  Just bend the bow arm way more than normal to get to 60 pounds or so.  If your arrows fly good with less power it may lead to a stiffer arrow choice.  what is your nock set at?  I am assuming that you are not shooting three under.

[brackshooter]

Nope, shooting split finger, and my nock is at about 5/8" above or so.  The arrows dont seem to have any up and down occilation, just side to side. And just let me say, this aint my first rodeo, if you know what i mean.  I have had probably 20 different bows in the last 4 years, both recurves and longbows, and have never had much trouble setting any of them up.  This one does have me stumped though... I am gonna give Craig at HH a call tomorrow and see if I cant pick his brain a little, maybe he can give me some other ideas.
thanks

[AkDan]

the more a non centershot bow is, the more you're going to see human error influences.  

Another question, what kind of string is on it?  I think the wesleys are FF capable.   Still it's likely you're way over spined.   a 2117 at 28"es spines out at 78lbs, so at 30 it's 68lbs.  Still a tad heavy I'd think for a hill style bow.

Coming down the spine list of shafts.

2215 76lbs
2020 74lbs
2217 70lbs
2018 69lbs
2115 68lbs

These are spines for 28"es, subtract 10lbs for a 30" draw.

Either way one of those first 3 should get you where you need to be.  Who knows maybe you short draw more then you think?  so now that 30" draw is really 28.5 or 29"es.  That would put a 2117 waay over spined more so then it already sounds.

[laddy]

Back when I thought 27'' draw was best for me I had an 89lb. Big 5, areal broom stick, that would not shoot the arrows I had.  I tshot Bear 308s perfect, it wouldn't shoot 2117 or stiffer.  However, I had a trim 79lb. three lam that was scary with the 308s and shot the stiffer arrows perfectly, as well as a 70 Schulz with the 2117s.  I also would not think that only left and right problems would be a tillering thing.  If this bow is one that is not very center shot the arrows could be too stiff, but it is hard for me to get my brain round that at a thirty inch draw, unless the release is very dead, which it probably isn't.

[SpankyNeal]

That TS+ string will probably add 5-10 lbs to the spine you need. My 51# Wesley shoots 57# cedars with a D97 string, and my 50# Tembo (carbon) shoots 60# with a TS+, both with 145gr up front. I think you may be in the relm of 2216's at that weight and draw length with the TS+ on it. I know everyone is different, but 5/8 nock height sounds a little high to me for split finger. Depending on how far you cant the bow, nock height problems can look like spine problems. I might be way off but might be something to try.

[Ray Lyon]

"If this bow is one that is not very center shot the arrows could be too stiff"

The heavier weight Hill's that I had barely had a cut-in (85-88# range). At that time I was using a #12 microflite shaft with 160 grain points. I think those shafts were 75-80 pounds on the spine chart. You may want to consider trying a lighter spined arrow to eliminate this possibility.  

Good luck.

[Dick in Seattle]

Good morning.... wish I'd picked up on this yesterday, but I was out shooting  :^)     I'm honestly not sure how much help I'm going to be, as I have never shot that heavy a weight, and shoot with a 25" draw.   That makes for a lot of difference in what works.    However, never one to be bashful (or afraid of being wrong!) I'll stick my neck out and give a couple of reactions...

First, I can't comment on carbons.   After some experimentation, i am convinced that carbons do not have spine.  All they have is free will, and, generally, attitude.    Enough said on that...

Given that length does soften arrow spine, the comments about being too stiff are probably on target, given your draw.   This next comment is going to sound off topic, but it really isn't:   Often we have trouble getting old antique sewing machines set up right.... finding the right needle and setting the tension.   Some seem easy, others wilfully stubborn.  The best course of action in the worst cases is to go all the way back to zero and start over.  That may be your best approach here.

Deliberatlely go way down in spine... maybe 1916... go softer until you clearly start to show it in impact point and nock kick.   Then work back up again.    Way back when, I figured spine was going to be a real problem for me because of my short draw, so I bought three arrows of each of Easton's weights from 1616 to 2016, then threw in 2018 and 2117.    I had them all cut to 28" (I never vary my arrow length) and left them bareshaft.   When I get a new bow it doesn't take long to find out what flies best.

That worked well for me, so I went a step further... I ordered a dozen made up arrows each in 1616, 1716, 1816 and 1916. These were the sizes that were working out best in most of the bows I was getting.  I was shooting right around 50#, a few bows higher and a few lower.   Almost all of these bows where Hills (about 40 of them over time) but a few were old shoot off the hand longbows of about the same weight, but which took softer spines.  

Spending all that money on arrows, about the cost of a bow, really was worth it.   I now have test arrows for new bows, and can immediately upon completing testing grab a quiver full of something that's going to work well and go shooting.  1916 worked for most of my Hills at my best shooting weight.    For wood arrows, I would simply match the spine that the best shooting aluminum tested at on my spine meter.

Now, I'm down in weight to 35# and finding that the 1816 and 1716 are working best for the new bows I am acquiring at that weight.  The 1816's are flyling great out of the recurves I'm playing with and the 1716's out of the non-center cut longbows.

One thing I noted is that generally, in spite of the fact that everyone said to shoot "soft", i.e. about 5# lower than bow weight, I often got good performance on my Hills with as much as 5# over bow weight.  I know Hill shooters who shoot 10# over.   My heaviest bows, around 60#, did well with 2018's.  I strongly suspect this had more to do with form than the bows.  

I'd play with the nock point, too... up and down...     Again, move it until you can clearly see "That's really wrong!", then start back the other direction.  

One word of encouragement... it can be done... at least with woods and aluminums.   I even got a beautiful match on a Hill that I had built with no shelf at all!  Shot it like an English Longbow

One more thing occurred to me.  You are moving multiple variables.   Settle on one set of criteria... one tip weight, one arrow length, one arrow material (alum. for choice).   Vary only one element at a time and study results.  Changing several things at once leaves you with no new knowledge.

Now, finally, fer cryin' out loud, don't listen to me... I shoot 35# at a 25" draw... what do I know?

Captain Dick in Seattle

Who is getting mighty hopeful that his new Hill LBC will arrive late this week or maybe next week for sure, and figures it will shoot a 1716 arrow perfectly right out of the box.    I'll let you know if I'm right...

[brackshooter]

Thanks so much for all the insight guys, I am definatly leanin towards a weaker arrow than i have shot.  I am gonna try some grizz stick sitkas, and maybe some 2020s.  I will let ya'll know what i come up with.

thanks

[brackshooter]

Well, I just measured my draw length, and guess what?  I only draw about 29" with this bow.  Big surprise for me!!  That probably puts me down in the 2018 or so range for a 30" arrow, doesnt it?

[laddy]

Howard Hill in his later years shot 29'' 2018s with 190 grain broadheads out of a 75 pound bow, sounds that they may work for you as well.

[Nate Steen .]

Brack,  you found the Hill phonomenon.....most guys shooting this style of bow with a low wrist are shooting seriously too long arrows.  Arrow length compared to a r/d bow or recurve can be as much as 2" shorter with a Hill bow.  I've always shot arrows about 10" overspine, with a 160 gr. head and get great flight, but I'm shooting arrows 27" bop.