Footed carbon shafts/arrows -- if not now, when?

[Naphtali]

In Update #2 or #3 of his 2007 updates, Ed Ashby wrote that he furnished his data on footing carbon shafts to a shaft manufacturer. Well, here it is the middle of June. Is anyone aware of a carbon footed shaft/arrow on the street or "coming real soon," as in before the 2008 season begins?

[BMG]

ARe you after a nearly bomb proof arrow?

I saw a heavy footed Beman Classic hit some solid angle iron that would have demolished any arrow on the market.  The field point was destroyed, the arrow is still being flung today.

[J-dog]

I heard of some new iternal fottings that were being looked at but have yet to see them out.

J

[Naphtali]

Originally posted by BabaLoo:
ARe you after a nearly bomb proof arrow?

I saw a heavy footed Beman Classic hit some solid angle iron that would have demolished any arrow on the market.  The field point was destroyed, the arrow is still being flung today.

Bomb proof's nice.

I've been getting "dancing feet" recently. About three weeks ago, two houses down and across the street was the first grizzly bear I've seen without bars between us. Through my binocular it was . . . imposing. Then on Sunday I was wandering my hunting area and saw the remains of a deer that looked as though it had been torn limb from limb. No vehicle for who-knows-how-long. Femur ball cracked and broken. Pelvis shattered. Likely a grizzly kill. Less likely a wolf pack. . . . Yeah, bomb proof's nice.

[ishiwannabe]

I was flipping through a wheelie bow mag, and trophy ridge was advertising their new line. External heavy "outserts" it appeared. They claimed high FOC too. Otherwise, I havent heard of anything close to being a footed, bombproof bear killer. Good luck. I thought it was tough when the black bears started rummaging through my garbage....I feel for ya.

[Doc Nock]

To keep in the Doc Ashby vein...

I've been following the tiny feathers and quiet arrow flight from Extreme FOC carbons...

I was pretty close to EFOC with 22%.

I've not purposefully tried to destroy a Gold Tip, but I'm usig the 100 gr. brass inserts...they're pretty darned long. (1.25" INSIDE shaft.)

One thing I liked right off was that with that much solid brass up inside the shaft for a full inch and a quarter (1 1/4")--might not be traditional "footing" but it sure has to go a long way toward reinforcing that vulnerable area "back of point".

[fatman]

Dave, I think you'll now find that there's a vulnerable area "back of insert"...at least that's been my experience    

Don't ask me how I know all this....  :cool:  

Kevin
 

[Doc Nock]

Oh, Kevin...you didn't!    :eek:      :rolleyes:  

Now that right there is funny... course, I've seen some beautiful wooden purple heart footed shafts just go "Blooey" recently, too.

Footing helps, but it doesn't make us invincible..or our arrows, per se. I have had some great success with tapered ash... Griz Stick AK, but there isn't a shaft I've shot long that I couldn't find some combo of stupid I'd do that didn't eventually cause them to just give up the ghost.

I used to shoot those fiberglass arrows...green they were... big fat suckers, B.C. (can I type at least that, Mods?)   :D  I shot one straight through a 3" maple sapling and had to cut down the tree to split it to get my arrow back... but eventually...I found ways to destroy even them!

AT least I get to reclaim and re-shoot my arrows more'n I did my .44 slugs, or rifle bullets!    

Um...btw..You reclaim your bb's when you were a kid too?  

[fatman]

....actually, yes;  we shot birds in grandad's metal shop on the farm....too far to go in to town for more BB's, but 30 minutes of scrounging could get you shootin' again....  

[Doc Nock]

kevin, kevin, kevin...you crack me up!

Back to the regularly scheduled program...

[Billy]

Doc, the brass and GT trad combo can be blown up!!
 I proved it on a concrete curb from 15yds...    
Blew the shaft out right behind the brass.
I dunno if a 2" footing would have helped but,I'm gonna try some soon....cause the shaft's gonna be too short if I blow it up again !!

[bm22]

i think the purpose of the internal footing is the gradual reduction of materal spreads the force of the  impact over a larger area and is less likely to break. if you foot a carbon arrow with aluminum, that makes keeps the end of the carbon from spilting and running up the shaft. i haven't found a "bomb proof" arrow yet.

most if not all of my breaks when shooting animals happens if the arrow stays in the animal and it breaks it off in the middle, i don't think you can ever fix that problem unless you make the arrow penetrate more. but then again i am not shooting grizzly bears or cape buffalo.

[Doc Nock]

BM22...good points.

I've had near pass throughs but the deer was wired...when the Bh hit...the offside shoulder started to come back, pinning the arrow against the rib and they snapped the front part of the arrow clean off... I noticed that carbons, while having good impact resistance, don't seem to take a lot of "shear" strength to break them.

One shop owner, trying to demonstrate that the multi-directional wrapped common carbons today, don't "splinter" like the "poltruded" ones of yesteryear did... broke a GT over his knee..it looked EXACTLY like it was cut on a cut off saw!

Two deer in the past 5 shot, did that trick with the off shoulder/elbow coming back, snapped the arrow off about 6-8" behind the tip... those deer do tend to 'explode' when they get tickled behind the on-side shoulder!

Nope! No bomb proof arrows. I truly don't mind breaking an arrow when I kill a critter! That seems the least I can do is sacrifice an arrow for an animal that has sacrificed it's life for my good table fare!

I've killed 3 on one GT in the past years, but I've also had 2 snap off like explained. Seems a fair trade!  

[Earl E. Nov...mber]

Lance,, You crack me up.. You assume since someone contacts a mfg with a suggestion they are going to jump through hoops and do it..
Having the privilege, (Or duty) of working in Mfg, and occasionally having the privilege of dealing with customer suggestion, I can assure you, that even though the suggestion makes sense, they are not always as simple as pushing a button and doing it..(If it was simple, everyone else would be doing it already, right??)
Many times very simple sounding suggestion can be very cost intensive causing major tooling change overs and expense.. Even then if the mfg, makes the decisions to do it, it can take months to even a year or two to bring it to fruition.
 For starters, I think carbon arrows are wound "Over" mandrels,, to add an internal foot, you would have to undercut the mandrels.. Then you have the problem of winding the extra fiber in a unique pattern.. Now does it affect your ability to remove the shaft from the mandrel? How many mandrels do you have? I am guessing they have several..(like maybe hundreds) Now what do you do with the old inventory already in the system?? And it goes on and on.. Have patience my friend,, If it's doable, and creates a market, it will happen.. In the mean time, keep putting them flimsy beer cans on hitting what your looking at, and all will be well.

[Naphtali]

Originally posted by Earl E. Nov...mber:
Lance,, You crack me up.. You assume since someone contacts a mfg with a suggestion they are going to jump through hoops and do it..
Having the privilege, (Or duty) of working in Mfg, and occasionally having the privilege of dealing with customer suggestion, I can assure you, that even though the suggestion makes sense, they are not always as simple as pushing a button and doing it..(If it was simple, everyone else would be doing it already, right??)
Many times very simple sounding suggestion can be very cost intensive causing major tooling change overs and expense.. Even then if the mfg, makes the decisions to do it, it can take months to even a year or two to bring it to fruition.
 For starters, I think carbon arrows are wound "Over" mandrels,, to add an internal foot, you would have to undercut the mandrels.. Then you have the problem of winding the extra fiber in a unique pattern.. Now does it affect your ability to remove the shaft from the mandrel? How many mandrels do you have? I am guessing they have several..(like maybe hundreds) Now what do you do with the old inventory already in the system?? And it goes on and on.. Have patience my friend,, If it's doable, and creates a market, it will happen.. In the mean time, keep putting them flimsy beer cans on hitting what your looking at, and all will be well.

Many thanks for your pertinent reply. I appreciate that theory precedes application. Ashby's publication succeeded his forwarding of information by how much time? That a product is not ready for production does not mean it is not somewhere along the pipeline "ether." Many people who participate in this forum have access to information not yet generally available -- you, for example.

If it's doable, and creates a market, it will happen.

We know it's doable. We know there's a market for it. How large a market? Dunno. That last part of your quoted sentence, that's what I want clarified.
***
Regarding shaggy dog humor, as The Great Durante used to say: I got a million of'm, a million!

[mqqse]

I plan to try the carbon footing real soon........anyone care to show a pic of the finished product?  I'll be beefing up my axis 500's with 1916's.

[elkbreath]

I'll put this on my thread too, but,

Anyone have any ideas on how one could be added to a grizz stik with brass inserts?  Not sure I understand entirely what it would require.  Ashby did say that the footing shooting be static in the arrow, a bit of wiggle ability should be allowed.    

Seems that adding the brass weights on the back of the insert would make an internal footing of sorts.  Putting a couple on there would make FOC go up and decrease the failure rate of the arrow, no?

[archenemy]

Beman MFX Classic 400 with 100 grain brass insert and 125 grain field tip, 2" aluminum footing shot at a concrete block snapped the arrow directly behind the footing.  Not bomb proof, but about as strong as you can get without footing the whole shaft.  That'd be one heavy shaft.

At least it didn't shove the tip back into the arrow splitting it.  

Normal use with footed arrows I have yet to break one.  I mainly use them for stumping with ace hex heads.

Archenemy

[Morning Star]

I've footed my MFX Classic 400's with a .5" piece of 2018.  

We have a small metal Caribou target at a local shoot that I've demoshished more than a few non-footed arrows on, alums and carbons.

Until this last shoot anyhow....

If I could post a picture I would.  The footed MFX has a 200 grain field tip that is just WRECKED, yet the shaft is perfect.  I'm a believer!  It's worth the little cost and time needed to do this.


.....and no cracks about just aiming better.