Cliff's Notes for Ashby Broadhead recommendations

[Missouri CK]

I'm guessing that I'm not the only one that has followed the extreme foc and single bevel broadhead topics over the last several month. I just got the new traditional archery magazine and immediately jumped to the article about the single beveled broadheads.  I have a love/hate relationship with all this data. I find myself intriged yet puzzled by what to do with the info Dr. Ashby has produced.  

Making my arrow set ups as leathal as possible sounds like the smart thing to do. Their is a confidence that comes with knowing you have stacked the odds in your favor.

Having said all of that, I can really understand the thinking of those who said "put it in boiler room and it doesn't make much difference".  For every rule their seems to be an exception, for every broadhead their is a flaw, for every arrow their is something that could be better.  

My point in starting this topic was to clarify some of the information out there. Not that we are going to solve the debate that comes with this topic but at least we might be able to break it down so its more digestible. I've read what Dr. Ashby has writen about broadheads but how do we apply it to the broadheads currently on the market.

Of the single bevel broadheads that are out on the market (or are coming out here soon) Grizzlies, Zwickey No Mercy, Eclipse, STOS, and all the others I'm forgetting.  What are the pros and cons that have been noted so far?  I.E. Steel quality, ability to sharpen, mechanical advantage, weight options and durability.

Chris

[J-dog]

I cant comment about the heads you listed, don't use them, but thinking about trying the 160 grizzly this year. I think the Doc's reports are very interesting, though sometimes I think that the woodsman is fine to punch through 115 lb WTs I chase mostly. Why settle when the grizzly has proven itself so well in the tests? every animal deserves the best. LOL

J

[ChuckC]

My thoughts are...  Dr Ashby spent a lot of time, effort and thought in this endeavor.  This was over the course of YEARS.  His work is wonderful, thoughtful, insightful and I believe right on point.   I thank him and those that have helped to come up with some truth's about how an arrow works.  Awesome work.

That said...   There are any number of arrows and broadheads that work very fine.  Maybe not as fine as a fine tuned Ashby system,  but right fine.  For the deer and similar game that most of us hunt, these other heads have been cleanly killing animals for years, centuries, and longer.  

It is my humble opinion that another of the things that we as hunting people need to learn is where to place that broadhead for the best results.  

All this talk about shooting thru shoulders and the like.  If you truly put the arrow thru both shoulders, you missed the goodies.  Most of us are trained to aim just behind the "shoulder"  which in most cases is really the elbow.  Then we hit a bit far back and worry, and rightfully so.  Not so many inches back and we missed the lungs completely and got liver or worse.

I believe we as a group need to rethink where we aim and to teach each other what we learned.

That plus using a good arrow / broadhead combo, well sharpened, well tuned and well placed and we are superb predators, killing cleanly, quickly and with little game loss due to "bad hits".

ChuckC

[bm22]

as far as his tests go, he is the first person to put  numbers behind his theory's.

what i don't understand is the "if you just put it were it needs to go then it doesn't matter crowd" like a finely tuned ashby system wont kill to.

i don't know if people are to lazy to experiment or just refuse to switch to a higher FOC single bevel broadheads. i don't understand the reasoning to shoot someething that is designed to work ONLY if placed in the "right spot"and i disagree with the through the shoulder blade statement. i have the seen the 3 best 3d shooters in Texas loose animals this past season. no one can hit a animal in the perfect spot every time, animals move!!!! if you hit a deer through the shoulder blade from the ground you hit his spine, if you are alittle lower you hit the top of the lungs. if you are in a tree you will hit lungs.

i try to aim slightly above the knuckle  center the lungs.

i have yet to find a disadvantage to ashby's system. i understand that alot of people have killed deer with other arrows and big 3 blade broadheads. my theory is if you hit a deer in the right spot with a grizzly it will be just as dead as if you hit it with a snuffer.

as far as the broadheads you mention the grizzly seems to be the head everything else is judged against. if any other broadhead is any easier to sharpen then the grizzly then that means the steel is softer. according to ashby the steel needs to be extra hard because th edge is ground finer. i don't know if the other heads have hard enough steel to be ground into a single bevel or if they are just 2 blade blanks that are just ground on one side. time will tell.

i have shot a pig with the zwickey no mercy and i liked the results. however according to ashby you have to have a extra wide edge like that of the grizzly to fully see the bone splinting benefits of the single bevel head. the zwickey is about half as thick as the grizzly, i have not seen the other heads.

good luck with your search

[tippit]

For the past 6 years Bear Camp has been my laboratory.  Seeing what a broadhead can do is very essential but more importantly understanding the unique anatomy of the animal you are hunting is the most important aspect for me. I autopsy (necropsy on an animal) most all the bears shot and try to explain why it was a good shot or a lucky shot.  I think most hunters come away with a better understanding and hopefully a learning desire to know your quarry.  I would hope everyone would dissect their shots to understand what the broadhead did be it single bevel or not.  JMHO...Doc

[WidowEater]

upon reading most of Doc Ashby's work, I find myself glued to the information even though I am not really interested in using it.

I agree that that I also have yet to find a disadvantage but I have used a setup for many years that has given me wonderful results.

I know that foremost with this information is that anyone can use it for any game animal.  I agree wholeheartedly that if one were to use an XFOC and single bevel setup properly tuned you would decrease the margin of error that much more and could (this time theoretically) be more successful.  

If you miss your spot and take out the shoulders of your deer then that is the reward for putting into practice what may be the best bowhunting information available.

[Missouri CK]

Here are a couple of questions I would like to see answered....

How would a single bevel STOS or Eclipse head compare to the Grizzly from a Mechanical advantage standpoint?  

Is the Teflon with the eclipse enough of an advantage to outweigh its shape which doesn't fit the 3 to 1 ratio recommended?  

How does the steel and edge of the No Mercy stack up against the Grizzly?

Almost all of the heads that Dr. Ashby talks about are the heaviest model made (i.e. 190 grain el grande).  Can a 125 grain head or a 145 grain head perform as well as a 190 grain head when it comes to bone (given its on an ext FOC arrow).

Chris

[J-dog]

I can understand "if you put it where it needs to go" idea. BUT Asby's whole mode of operation is that one shot where you tried to put it where it needed to go but the animal jumped string, or you pulled the shot, something happened and it didn't go right. Now you need every possible advantage to get penetration to get through to the goodies. Hope  am not off there Mr. Ashby?, Maybe just my take on his work.

That is why I am wondering between the WW and the 160 grizzly, i tis not the 190 sumper killer but a good head I think. Then again in the thick woods I hunt I value a blood trail, and have heard stories about 2 blades, though I think a super sharp SUPER sharp BHd makes a blood trail not the # blades.

Who knows, I think too much    , need to stop that.

J

[AllenR]

Dr Ashby's work is the best researched information available on what it takes to kill a game animal.  What he has done will effect broadhead and arrow design for years to come and I thank him for it.

One thing that I would like to see is similar research on lighter game such as the whitetail.  It seems to reason that momentum and penetration will act differently on lighter game than on the heavy animals in Dr Ashby's research.

Also, whitetail hunters have to deal with much faster reflexes than the relatively ponderous buffalo.  The same broadhead, arrow weight and XFOC that is perfect for the big animals may not be the optimum for the quicker little animals.  

I don't think that Dr Ashby is wrong on any point. However, I think that we don't have all the answers when it comes to smaller game.

Has anybody done similar research on game animals other than the buffalo?

[SteveB]

i don't know if people are to lazy to experiment or just refuse to switch to a higher FOC single bevel broadheads.

Or just maybe they are comfortable using what has always worked for them and ten's of thousands of others threw out history.

Use what you want - find value in what you want - but don't call others lazy for not jumping on your wagon.

Steve

[SlowBowinMO]

Lots of good input here.  To address a few points that were raised:

Chris, I've had excellent results with smaller Grizzlies, properly sharpened they should perform admirably.  The smaller Grizzlies are slightly softer than the El Grandes, and the 160's are actually the same thickness as the big 190.  I've long thought a 160 with its smaller cutting diameter might be a better option for most folks than trying to create a narrowed down "Ashby" 190.  I've never had trouble with any Grizzly as long as it was at least a 125 grainer, but I don't shoot Buff either.

As far as the Zwickey No Mercy goes, it is my perception from file sharpening that they are very good steel, but probably not as hard as Grizzlies.  They sharpen up nicely though and you can create a very sharp, wide single bevel if you choose to.  There has been some misconception regarding the No Mercy heads, I can assure you they are a true single bevel.

I'm going to be giving the new Zwickeys and the Magnus BuzzCuts a workout this fall I hope.   :D  

   

[Orion]

Kris:  At this point, there really aren't very many single bevel heads available.  In addition to the Grizzly, I believe Abowyer and Cheetah also make true single bevel heads, and I believe you can get the latter in left wing grinds.  Grizzlies are so far still offered only in right wing grinds.

IMO, the Zwickey No Mercy is not a true single bevel.  Haven't seen the single bevel Eclipse, but if they grind it the same way, it would not be a true single bevel either.  They each have three shicknesses of steel toward the tip.  By grinding a single bevel on those heads, the layer of steel on the off side is not ground.  Thus, you basically have a dull or at least blunt edge near the point working against the rest of the blade.  It's close, but not quite there.  As I understand it, the STOS will be made of two pieces of steel its entire length and will have the 3:1 profile, and it will be offered in left-wing bevel.  Won't be available for a while though.  I'm going to wait.  The Zwickey Deltas I've been shooting for the past 30 plus years as well as the STOS that I've been shooting more recently, also work very well.

In the interim, you can take pretty much any two blade broadhead and file it into a single bevel configuration.  Three blade thickness tips will result in that off-side blunted edge, of course.  Looks like some Tusker heads could be made into nice single bevels.  Good luck.

[ChuckC]

Jerry.. it can be done.  I have one sitting on my desk that I made a while back from a Magnus I.  Yes it is a "true" single bevel, albeit not perfect, but it it one bevel none the less.  Cuts pretty well (ouch)
ChuckC

[deathwind]

I am going on a buffalo hunt this coming October, and the information that Dr. Ashby as given us has proved itself invaluable to me. The FOC advice has given me more penetration on plywood than just adding weight to the shaft has. The grizzly broadhead taken down to his dimensions have out penetrated the regular grizzlies. I have yet to see any of the info. that Dr. Ashby has given us to be questionable. I feel more confident shooting big game with his set up than I do with my previous whitetail gear.

[Missouri CK]

Deathwind,

I agree with what your are saying.  Dr. Ashby seems to have a ton of great information.  The Extreme FOC arrow seems like it is a no brainer. Heavier is much better and I have increased my arrow weight to 600-650 grains.  

My issue is how to put it into action especially when the majority of us shoot left wing fletchings and most broadheads are not single bevel.  

Either I buy all new fletching jigs and feathers and then get the El Grande or I have to make the best choice out of the other broadheads present at this time.

Chris

[Bob Morrison]

[Bob Morrison]

[Bob Morrison]

I should have the first test BH next week. It will be 300 Grains and left single bevel.    
   2_blade_bh.html  [/QB][/QUOTE]

[DIAMONDBACK]

Steeforce broadheads makes a left hand single bevel broad head,3:1 ratio,145grs.It is called the Traditional head.

[ChuckC]

Bob. Looks good.....question.. unless I am backwards, that drawing looks like a right wing bevel, same as a Grizzly.  Is that right ?

ChuckC