The "concept" of camoflage?????

[woodchucker]

BAK, You are very right about the Red/Green in a Black & White photo.....

Back in the 70's my Mom took a Black & White photo of my friend and I. I was wearing a Red&Black plaid Woolrich shirt,and my friend was wearing a Green&Black plaid Woolrich shirt.....You couldn't tell which was which!!!!!

[woodchucker]

Hmmmmm.....I was just thinking.....     :rolleyes:  

A deer is brown.(with some white in spots)There are some variations in shade and texture of the hair,but pretty much brown from head to tail.

If you look at the NaturalGear pattern,you will find that it's very subtle,with slight changes in shade,and comes in brown(tan),gray,green.....much like ASAT comes in brown,gray,green.....

So I was wondering.....What makes ASAT with it's "bold" pattern,better than NatGear with it's "subtle" pattern?????

[Deadsmple]

Originally posted by woodchucker:
So I was wondering.....What makes ASAT with it's "bold" pattern,better than NatGear with it's "subtle" pattern?????

I'm thinking it's the "open" space the ASAT does a good job of imitating. Kind of like making the mind think there is nothing there as opposed to seeing a "bush".  I'm just guessing here but that's what I think.

[ChuckC]

Don't know that it is better... just different.  

As I said in my first post, and I stand by it.. camouflage is many things, but breaking up your outline is very, maybe most important for what we do.  

You can wear black and white and stand out like anything, but if you don't look like a human, you've successfully camouflaged yourself.    

Now take that black and white and make it a bit more subdued and you have taken it a step further.

WHAT you are trying to hide from dictates how deeply you need to consider your camo scheme.  IF you are trying to hide from human guards with sniffer dogs... you have your work cut out for you... and we have people that are good enough to do just that.

Otherwise, you can still be in plain view with black and white and get away with it in many cases, because you no longer look like danger.

Animals do it all the time.  how ???  well they don't tend to come out into the open, and if they are and get worried they run back into cover and stop then to look at what it was that spooked them.  The trees, and shrubs, and stuff sure breaks up their outline.  

They make excellent use of shadows and shade.. makes sense from a lot of view points... if there is no sun in their eyes they can see you better, and their fur tends not to shine, except for rump patches and the like and they were designed to be seen for warnings.

Re: breakup
Case in point... pig / javelina hunting in Texas as few years back.   Standing upright I was pegged every single time I got close, even in full predator green camo.   But when I crawled onto the sendero on my hands and knees and started "feeding" on the same corn that they were, they let me ease right up near them.   Note:   beware.. kneeling on a cactus pod while doing this tends to screw all that work right up.

I am gonna try wearing black.. as a pig suit, or even better (bring the camera)  how about a cow suit next time.  

Simply having a 2D cow or pig outline held in front of you is a form of camouflage that will work in many cases.  Worked for antelope hunters, supposedly worked for native americans when they threw a deer hide over their back and crawled toward the prey.
ChuckC

[woodchucker]

OK Folks.....You probly already know,I've been messin' with ya!!!!!              

I think we've all done alot of thinking,and learned alot.              

Here is what we've learned.....

1) Green is GREAT,Brown is BETTER(sometimes)and Gray is BEST!!!!!(in the right place)

2) UV is a "killer" (I'm still on the fence,but I'll give ya this one)

3)Synthetic fibers reflect light and "shine" more than natural ones like wool which absorb light.

4)A bold pattern such as ASAT is GREAT and effectively breaks up your human outline.

5)A subtle pattern such as brown NatGear is GREAT and is very effective at blending in amongst the leaf litter of the forest floor.

6)A "busy" pattern such as MossyOak is GREAT,in it's place,such as "up close and personal".

7)Old plaid shirts probly work as good as anything.....              


and last but not least.....

Ol'woodchucker will continue to wear is thrift store wool sweaters,wool pants,and his "home made" camo jeans.        

(I take old black denim jeans and wash them in bleach untill they come out "dirt" brown)    

May The Great Spirit Guide Your Arrows My Friends

[ChuckC]

Thanks Chuck !
ChuckC

[GingivitisKahn]

Originally posted by Jerry Jeffer:
yeah, ok, but he wasn't moving. Again, movement will get you busted.   Hmmm, dark mass in a deadfall..
 

Careful Jerry!  I think there's a bear behind ya!

[woodchucker]

Hmmmmm.....Now that you mention it,I think that's an ear next to Jerry's head!!!!!  

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The title of this thread caught my eye, as I have said for years that camoflauge is a concept, not a pattern.

While I own BOXES full of camo, I usually wear a plaid shirt or jacket up top (some of my favorite wool pants are camo, it's the fabric, not the pattern that attracts me). I also have a grey Filson jacket with a very fine black weave in it that disapears in the evening woods.

Yep, I try and match the plaid to the spot (oaks, pines, grass all require different tones of plaid, IMHO). But beyond the pattern, I focus on shadow, a backdrop, etc. to complete my camo "concept". I have deer SMELL me every year, but I can't recall being seen.

[Brian Krebs]

Sorry to bring this up- Chuck; but it seems nobody has mentioned using camoflauge netting.

 I have a mosquito jacket that breaks up my outline and kind of blends in with the background.

 I had mosquito proof camo net pants and a jacket at one time; and it was really effective.

 I think - from my experience- that the mosquito net suit is the best camo. But it does snag on everything and therefore has disadvantages. On a warm or hot summer day- camo jean pants and a camo t shirt with the net jacket... really really: is effective.

 I do totally agree with movement being high in importance- but too: not moving can be. If I am hunkered down in some brush; or in a treestand and the wind is blowing hard: or stalking and the wind is moving everything- I move so that I don't stand out. If I am in rocks I freeze when a deer looks my way while I am stalking.

 I do think it is kind of silly (isn't it?) to wear matching camo tops and bottoms. Its not a fashion statement     I think wearing different camo pants and tops - breaks up the human form.

 I hunted in totally open country once in winter; and wore white with green grass like stripes; and solid white camo pants. I had a guy in dark green camo walk by me a few feet away; and he did not see me. After he passed by I had to chuckle; and when I did..a voice from the snow next to me said "think your smart- don't you?".  It was a longbow hunter: in even better white camo.   :rolleyes:  

 humbled again......

[Orion]

To follow up on Osagetree's suggestion, I'm surprised that some camo manufacturer hasn't done that, i.e., split the camo in half lengthwise, that is two different camo patterns that run vertically on the garmet -- half the top and one pants leg one pattern, the other half another pattern.  Seems it would work particularly well for tree stand hunting.  

I've been thinking about doing that for many years, just never got around to trying it.  Of course, it neccesitates buying two sets of camo and taking them apart and putting them back together.  Too much cost and effort for the result.  But if it were done in the manufacturing process, it wouldn't add much to the cost.  Anybody tried it?

[joe skipp]

Bowhunting out West for Elk or Mulies in the high country, I use the following:

 

My buddy Bamboo uses this setup for whitetails...also uses ASAT pants...

 

Normally, its all ASAT for me late fall when the leaves are down...
 

Whatever camo pattern fits your environment, especially ground hunting. Tree stand...most any pattern will work if you remain noiseless and motionless.

[SoNevada Archer]

I live and hunt in the West...maybe it's different in different places, but most "western" patterns are dark too...until you wash them a few times. Then they dull up and fit right in.
In the end, no camo will hide you if you move too fast, skyline yourself or hunt with the wind.
I have had deer and elk so close I could rock them while in blaze orange. But I wasn't moving...I couldn't move. I think camo gives you an edge at the moment of truth when you "have to move" to draw your bow.
Whatever clothing choice, I think it has to be quiet and dull more than anything else.
Happy Hunting!

[JEFF B]

i am with you joe on that one.  

[Curtiss Cardinal]

OK I will go back and read all the other replies after I put in my 2 cents.
First off animals are not a solid color. They are counter shaded. Lighter on the bottom than the top to counter act the sunlight and shadow effect. They also have blended color coats. They also use cover well and move with stealth, or remain still for hours to avoid predation.
Now to the concept of camoflauge. It is not only the breaking up of the outline, it is the blending in to the surroundings, it is the effort to become invisible for all intents and purposes. as light does not pass through us real invisibility is not currently possible. For true camoflauge you must you your surroundings to aid you and use them as well as your clothing. As animals see farther into the spectrum than we do I think UV Killer sprays are a god send. Also do not wash hunting clothes in your common everyday laundry detergent as it has UV brighteners in it that will make clothes washed in GLOW in the UV part of the spectrum. OK now to address the camo that is available. Well I will only talk about the one I personally think is best and I will also say why.
ASAT without a doubt. Truly is All Season All Terrain. And the pinnacle of ASAT is the 3D Pro Vanish leafy suit. And if the wind moves the cut out leaves on the suit it will move the real leaves on the trees, bushes and weeds around you and so you will not draw attention just because of that. Now here is why ASAT is so good. It makes you look to a prey animal like your body is disassembled and in three different distances to them and as it is in various sized pieces at different distances you don't look like anything recognizable at any of those distances. You see the black lines look close, the brown lines look farther way and the light tan background looks booth close where the sun hits it and infinately far in oput of the sun. The 3D Pro Vanish cuts you up into smaller, less recognizable pieces and blends you into your surroundings simutaneously. Game animals look through you for the lack of a better way of putting it. So you aren't there. I was videoed wearing original ASAT pattern on a hog hunt and standing in the open it is easy to see why the patter is effective in the low morning light when the sun hot me parts of me disappeared in the frame. It was weird to see but it solidified my opinion about ASAT. I wont wear anything else in the woods as far as camo goes. OK maybe that was my 5 cents but I could go on. I won't for now to keep the post readable.

[Arwin]

C-2 your are so right. I had a hen turkey this spring nearly hop on my lap. The only thing that tipped her off was that I blinked when she was 10ft away. That is an accurate description, the animals look through you.
 Not to cut on Predator camo because it is still great stuff, but in a test last season between the two, I shot 3 deer in ASAT and 1 in Predator Fall Gray, both given nearly equal amount of hunting time. I put away the Predator after getting busted towards the end of the season. I had to get that last tag filled!!

[ChuckC]

weekend warrior has a very excellent few pix of a piebald doe in another thread.  This very much shows an example of one aspect I was trying to put across.  

Although there is a lot of white on the deer, and white obviously stands out to the eye, that deer is very well hidden... in plain view... because it is broken up and doesn't look like a deer.  Looks like something yes... it is not hidden from view... but not like a deer.

The same effect happens when wearing ASAT and Predator style camo clothing, or Hawaian shirts for that matter.  Yeah, something is there, but it doesn't look like danger.
ChuckC

[Falk]

The following   video clip on Cephalopode camo abilities  is as entertaining as impressive and one can certainly learn a little about the "concept" of camoflage.

Note: Longer wave lenghts are easily absorbed by water, so under water colors are subdude (?word) or suppressed or whatever this is called. Only close to the surface or in artificial light, they shine. Pattern and form are more important here. These cephalopodes are truely amazing and let a chameleon look like a camoflage greenhorn      


David Gallo: "I am a geologist by training"  - thats good! Then you should know about everything  :D

[SL]

We will probably never know what animals we hunt see things as. I believe that our skin must be covered(face-hands etc).
The camo is something to sell, there will always be a new "better" pattern every year.
For those brave soldiers hunting man camo take on a whole new meaning.
 That is where all this started. If the old fatigues didn't have all those pockets they would have probably never been used for hunting and the market would have developed differently.
SL

[La. bowhunter]

I think that most camo pattern are made to decieve hunters more than to decieve game. If it looks good then you want to buy it because you think it looks good. Last spring my buddy and I were doing some filming for his video series and he had a new camo sponser, well he brought me some to wear on our 3 state turkey hunt. Well when he pulled it out the first thought that went through my mind was that this had to be some of the ugliest stuff I had ever laid my eyes on and we would never be able to get a turkey close enough to kill with a shotgun and definately not with a bow. Well 18 days and 21 turkeys later I had changed my mind, so what looks good may not always be good and what looks bad may not always be bad.