3Rivers Archery



The Trad Gang Digital Market













Contribute to Trad Gang and Access the Classifieds!

Become a Trad Gang Sponsor!

Traditional Archery for Bowhunters






LEFT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS TRAD GANG CLASSIFIEDS ACCESS RIGHT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS


Author Topic: For those who decreased draw weight..........  (Read 2204 times)

Offline jacobsladder

  • TGMM Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 3161
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2008, 08:45:00 PM »
imo.... we should all strive for the weight that allows us to reach our maximum draw length comfortably... when we reach our maximum draw, we should be using more back tension and have better alignment and consistant anchor...if we shoot a bow that is too heavy for us to handle comfortably...we tend to short draw, lose anchor, and lose back tension and alignment... for me 45#s is comfortable and great, for some 55# and over may work... but a higher poundage bow doesnt mean squat if your not reaching max draw and anchoring consistantly... i like a bow that i can run thru the 3d course a couple times and not feel like im fighting to draw it back...so i guess i'd say grab a lighter bow and see how far you draw your arrow back...if your draw lengthens, then you may need to drop a few pounds...
TGMM Family of the Bow

"There's a race of men that dont fit in, A race that can't stay still; So they break the hearts of kith and kin, And they roam the world at will"  Robert Service

Online M60gunner

  • Contributing Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 3014
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2008, 09:10:00 PM »
Well Mr. Stout I see we have had different experiences over the years. We also do not agree on this matter but I do agree with you about the bad bow shooter. Nothing makes up for a bad shooter and no matter what weight bow they should not be hunting!!

Offline Scott Gray

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 97
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2008, 12:41:00 AM »
I agree with you George,, a bad shot is still a bad shot whether it be from a 60-70 lb. bow or a 40-45 lb. bow. The bow doesn't take the shot the archer does. I shot 55-60 lbs bows well for years but I made the choice to shoot a 42 lb. bow because it is more comfortable(less painful)thus I now shoot better.
BlackCreek Banshee 42 lbs@28

Offline Swamp Pygmy

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 402
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2008, 04:12:00 AM »
Biggie 3 blades at 45lbs? Not that I'd know better; I just always heard use 2 at that weight.

I think alot of the weight argument is left out is the distance you hunt. With the same bow a thirty yard shot is completely different than a twelve yard shot at the same game. And of course your draw length.

They have a ton of pigs where I hunt. I see 20+ a day. Have to throw rocks at them to get them off of the trail sometimes to pass them. During hunting season they are much more wary but anyway my point is I have a 44lb bow and I want to shoot a bunch of different weight pigs and see what different heads do at different distances. There are enough pigs of various weights that I think it's do-able.
South Louisiana Longbow Shooter

The only trophy you'll ever bring home is a good time. The rest is just meat. -SP

Offline Biggie Hoffman

  • SRBZ
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 3336
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2008, 05:43:00 AM »
Rocky was talkin bout deer huntin...he didn't say anything about pigs.
The almost 3-1 designa like the woodsman and something really sharp like the Razorcap are both good heads for his set-up for deer.

I also disagree that the distance of the shot is relevant. Ah arrow loses very little energy at 30 yards, the only reason it is falling is gravitational pull, not loss of energy.
PBS Life Member
Member 1K LLC

"If you are twenty and aren't liberal you don't have a heart...if you're forty and not conservative you don't have a brain".....Winston Churchill

Offline Jedimaster

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 946
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2008, 04:56:00 PM »
I'll repeat this mantra as I have before.  I didn't come up with it, but I wish I had - Dead is dead, you can't get "deader".  There are reasonable limits to what is acceptable in EVERY situation.  There is a minimum effective weight.  There is a maximum effective yardage.  My bow does it's part every time.  When I hunt with someone new I judge their ability to take game by how accurate they shoot and how sharp their broadheads are, not by how many pounds they can pull.  Again, shoot the weight you can and know your ability.  "Dead is dead, you can't get deader".
Do or do not ... there is no "try"

Cum catapulatae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

Offline SteveB

  • SPONSOR
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1069
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2008, 05:07:00 PM »
Quote
Ah arrow loses very little energy at 30 yards, the only reason it is falling is gravitational pull, not loss of energy.
 
Great point!!
Never thought of it, but it makes sense.

Steve

Offline Swamp Pygmy

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 402
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2008, 07:03:00 PM »
Well all I can say is there is a noticeable difference in penetration between 12yds and 30 yards in my targets. I was always lead to believe they lost alot of umph over every increasing yard. The decrease in speed if absolutely nothing else should play a decent role in how far something penetrates over distance though right?


Isn't one of the big deals with compounds that they store more energy out to longer distances?
South Louisiana Longbow Shooter

The only trophy you'll ever bring home is a good time. The rest is just meat. -SP

Offline fatman

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1312
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2008, 07:21:00 PM »
compounds having more energy at longer distance is a falacy...down-range performance is as much a function of projectile weight as speed....

A lighter projectile tends to "shed" speed faster than a heavier mass...therefore, a lighter, faster projectile and a heavy, slower projectile may start out at the same Kinetic Engergy, but the heavier projectile will have more energy at longer ranges...

This is why Momentum is more meaningful (IMHO) than "Connecticut Energy" (apologies to Too Short)
    :bigsmyl:    
Slower bow w/ heavy arrow trumps fast bow w/ light arrow for penetration...
"Better to have that thing and not need it, than to need it and not have it"
Woodrow F. Call

Commitment is like bacon & eggs; the chicken is involved, but the pig is committed....

Offline Swamp Pygmy

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 402
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2008, 07:46:00 PM »
yes but at distance?

What I'm saying is do you think if you shoot your hunting arrow into a piece fence post at ten yards and then walk back forty yards and do it again it's going to have the same penetration?

I don't think it will personally. Eventually the force that propelled that arrow is going to decrease and its going to come down to earth.

Thats why a heavier bow will shoot a flatter arrow at a further rate. More momentum behind it but it does slowly decrease and gravity over comes the momentum of your draw stroke and it starts coming back down to earth.

I mean I think anyway. I'm not a scientist. But I can say when I shoot at ten yards my arrow goes half through my target and around thirty to forty it might go in six inches. Am I alone in this experience?
South Louisiana Longbow Shooter

The only trophy you'll ever bring home is a good time. The rest is just meat. -SP

Offline fatman

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1312
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2008, 07:52:00 PM »
Biggie's original post related to RETAINED energy downrange;  yes, the energy will be less at 40yds...but a heavier arrow, regardless of the beginning velocity, will retain a higher level of energy than a lighter arrow launched at the same velocity....

Trajectory is a function of speed and time...a 600gr arrow appears to "drop" faster than a 500gr arrow because it leaves the bow at a slower speed, therefore it is not as far downrange at a given time....
"Better to have that thing and not need it, than to need it and not have it"
Woodrow F. Call

Commitment is like bacon & eggs; the chicken is involved, but the pig is committed....

Offline Swamp Pygmy

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 402
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2008, 08:24:00 PM »
But doesn't that mean it has less penetration at 30 yds as 12 yds? thats all I'm talking about.

I know a heavier arrow retains its penetration better. I'm not saying use a light arrow. I'm not saying change your setup at all. I'm talking in a hunting scenario I do not think an arrow will penetrate the deer the same at 12 yards as thirty. Thats all I'm talking about.

My original post when I said a 45lb bow isn't the same at ten yards as it is as thirty I meant that even hunting the same species. Someone taking naturally longer shots at game in the flat country may have completely valid but opposing view points as someone who uses the same bow at ten yards in thickets. Thats all I meant.
South Louisiana Longbow Shooter

The only trophy you'll ever bring home is a good time. The rest is just meat. -SP

Offline amar911

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2860
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2008, 04:11:00 AM »
It's easy to see that many of the people here are almost exclusively into archery, because the rifle nuts out there who are doing long distance shooting understand most of these concepts very well. As a certified gun nut, as well as an archery nut and pilot, I can tell you that the study of ballistics and aerodynamics has described most of these matters very well for many years. Because of archery's rather primitive heritage and low flight-performance characteristics, these matters have not been considered generally as important in archery until more recently. There are literally books written on these subjects, and I could go on and on for hours discussing them, but there are a few basic fundamentals.

First, a drawn bow stores potential energy which on release converts to kinetic energy. The energy stored in the bow at full draw depends on the design of the bow and the length of the pull. A more efficient bow design stores more energy, and a longer draw also stores more energy. It is not simply the peak draw weight of a bow that dictates the energy that is put into the bow or the energy that will be returned on release. That is why when looking at the draw length versus force curve on a bow that the area under the curve becomes so important. Of course, the bow must be efficient in returning that energy in order to propel an arrow faster. Compound bows generally store more energy for a given draw length and peak weight than stick bows and are more efficient at returning that energy to the arrow for a variety of reasons including higher initial pull weight, longer peak weight and more efficient acceleration of the arrow due to the lighter holding weight that increases quickly to the peak weight and maintains the higher weights over a longer period of time. Efficiency of a bow can be somewhat higher or lower depending on arrow weight, but generally speaking the kinetic energy of a lighter arrow will be about the same as that of a heavier arrow shot from the same bow by the same archer. Kinetic energy equals mass times velocity squared. That is different from momentum which is mass times velocity. Because velocity becomes much more important in the energy equation than mass, lighter arrows are much more dependent on velocity to "earn" their energy than are heavier arrows.

It is well known in aerodynamics and ballistics that drag increases logarithmically with speed. That is why some of our politicians are once again trying to lower the speed limit to save gasoline. A object, like a car or an arrow, that is going faster will be more affected by drag from the air around it than a slower moving object and will have a greater percentage decrease in velocity over a given period of time if no additional force is used (like a motor). So, the same object going faster will slow more quickly than when it starts off slower. The drag of the air converts the kinetic energy of the projectile into heat so that less energy is available. That is main reason that Swamp Pygmy has observed less penetration by an arrow at 30 yards than at 10 yards -- the energy in the arrow is less as the distance increases and the velocity decreases. At extreme velocity, the heat generated by the drag on a projectile in air can be impressive, like a meteor or the space shuttle becoming fiery hot on entering the earth's atmosphere. If there were no air to cause drag, an arrow would maintain its forward velocity until gravity accelerated its vertical velocity so that the arrow was pulled into the earth (actually they were pulled together, but the arrow's gravitational pull is so small that it can be ignored for all practical purposes).

The main purpose of the feathers is to guide the arrow by acting both as air foils and as drag devices. There can be some gyroscopic advantages, but even straight vanes will produce stable directional flight. Flu flu arrows are designed to have greater drag and slow an arrow even more quickly as a result. If the back of an arrow is trying to slow down faster than the front, the back end will stay at the rear and the front will stay at the front giving the arrow great directional stability but also slowing down the arrow. An unfletched arrow will be noticeably faster at 20 yards than a fletched arrow if the arrow flies straight, but the fletched arrow will be directionally much more stable.

A heavier arrow of the same length and diameter will have a higher sectional density, and, if the shape is the same, will have a higher ballistic coefficient. These terms will be very familiar to experienced rifle shooters. Sectional density relates very well to penetration of a more or less solid object, while ballistic coefficient describes the ease with which the projectile penetrates the air or some other low density fluid. If the shape of the projectile is exactly the same in every way, the higher the sectional density, the higher the ballistic coefficient. The higher the ballistic coefficient, the less the projectile will be affected by drag.

So, a projectile of the same shape that is heavier and slower will be less affected by drag than one that is lighter and slower. That is why a heavy arrow out of the same bow will not slow down as quickly as a lighter arrow. The bow will push the lighter arrow faster, but the heavy arrow will keep its speed up longer. Since the heavy arrow is going slower though, and the acceleration of the arrow towards the earth is constant for arrows of all weights and will bring both down to earth at the same time, the faster one will drop less at any given point as long as it is able to maintain a velocity advantage. That is why lighter arrows shoot flatter over typical shooting distances. That makes range estimation less critical and increases the odds of hitting the target as range increases unless you are very good at determining range and accommodating the arc of your arrow at various distances. The same types of problems are encountered with wind drift, but I won't go into that here.

When we start talking about penetration of a target, and specifically a game animal, other considerations are encountered. We all hear Dr. Ashby's theories and studies, but some of the reasoning is difficult to understand. The latest thing we have been hearing about is the single bevel issue. That all arises because when we use feathers, and especially when we use feathers with a helical twist, we impart spin to the arrow to help stabilize it. If the bevel of the broadhead is shaped to help maintain the spin of the arrow during its penetration into an animal, in the same direction as it was going during flight, less energy is lost and more energy can be retained for penetration. If the broadhead is shaped to stop the spin (double bevel) or reverse the spin (right hand single bevel broadhead on a left helical fletched arrow) substantial amounts of energy are used to stop the spin or reverse it and that energy is no longer available to aid in penetration. Also, the more energy that is lost in stabilizing the arrow in flight (because of excessive fletching or poorly tuned arrows) the less energy is available for penetration. Furthermore, if a poorly tuned arrow turns partly sideways and exposes more surface area in the air or at the target, the more energy will be expended on things other than driving the broadhead into the animal.

One of the other very important things to consider is how a broadhead (or a knife) cuts. One way is through micro tears from the rough edge that is present on even the most finely honed cutting surface. Under a microscope a knife edge has a very serrated appearance. These tiny "serrations" grab the tissue and tear it apart as the broadhead or knife cuts through the animal. For the most part, however, the ability to produce this penetrating cut arises from the EXTREMELY high pressure that is exerted at the very, very thin edge of the cutting tool. Because pressure is measured in units like pounds per square inch, just imagine how quickly the pressure will grow if the surface area is decreased dramatically. Think about how incredibly small the surface area is on the edge of a razor. That means the force is absolutely amazing when weight is applied to that surface. It is that same reason why needles can penetrate so much better than a flat piece of dowel. And even if you decrease the diameter of the piece of dowel by half, the pressure per square inch will be four times as high because area decreases by the square of the diameter. Think now of sharpening the dowel to a fine point and what that would do to the pressure. That is the idea of a nail and is the key to its ability to penetrate objects. The amount of force on the tiny amount of surface area on the point of the nail is tremendous. A razor edge is many times smaller than the point of a nail or a sharpened stick and also unzips the tissue along the length of a long, aerodynamic cutting edge, allowing the high drag shaft and fletching to follow a path of much less resistance after the hole has opened up. The main reason why a super sharp edge on a broadhead is so important is that it vastly increases the pressure on the cutting edge.

I know I have thrown out a lot of concepts here, but the main things to remember are the following:

1. Arrows that are weighted forward of center are inherently more stable because the front part wants to keep going forward due to the fact that drag affects it less than the lighter rear end of the arrow (the center of gravity is in front of the center of pressure).
2. Heavier arrows go slower but maintain their speed better, both in the air and in the target.
3. Lighter arrows go faster and have less drop at the same distance as a heavier arrow (one of the few advantages of a lighter arrow).
4. Fletching slows down an arrow, especially the rear part, so that it stays towards the rear and gives flight stability.
5. A well tuned arrow is more aerodynamic and will maintain its velocity and penetrate the target better.
6. A sharper broadhead edge will create far higher pressures at the target and will penetrate much better.
7. A bow is more efficient with arrows in a given range (arrows that are too heavy or too light can rob energy from the system).

Hopefully this may help someone understand why those in the know at Trad Gang (I am talking about people who are much more experienced than I am) recommend arrows on the somewhat heavy side that are well tuned and are tipped with extremely sharp cut on contact broadheads designed to work efficiently with the fletching (which should not be overdone with fletch that is far too big because it creates major drag). Also, because arrows do have quite a bit of drag and are not particularly high in energy levels (unlike large caliber rifle bullets fired at high velocities), distances from the archer to the animal should be kept as close as possible. Accuracy suffers too at distance, especially when sighting devices are not used, and accuracy is very important in hitting places that allow adequate penetration to vital organs that will result in quick deaths.

Sorry to be so wordy. Hope this helps someone. Maybe most of you already knew all this, and I certainly did not go into the detail this subject really deserves. I know Dr. Ashby has provided much better discussions of this than I have, but I wanted to approach it from a different viewpoint.

Allan
TGMM Family of the Bow

Offline George D. Stout

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3467
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2008, 10:49:00 AM »
I have a challenge for those who raise their noses at 45 pound bows.   Let me shoot into your car or truck door at 35 yards with my 46 pound longbow, a 500 grain cedar arrow and 160 grain Grizzly.

 Then we will do the same with my 57  pounder.  I'm betting, we will see very little difference in the penetration.  I have tested this myself on an old Coleman Cooler. Both of them penetrated the side of the cooler, with the 57 pound about an inch deeper after the impact.

Those of you who have never used a 45 pound bow to hunt with, set up with decently heavy arrows and good broadheads, will have your eyes opened at what they can do.  Perfect arrow flight is the key as well as accuracy.

My good friend Scotty can shoot his 68 pound Ron Maulding longbow, and I will shoot my 50 pound Tri-State Recurve and outshoot him by ten yards or more.  Scotty has a 26" draw and I have a 28" draw.  The two inches difference more than equalizes the power of the bows in this instance.

There are so many dynamic variables in this archery game to label a number as being too light or too heavy.

Offline amar911

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2860
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2008, 10:52:00 AM »
The first sentence of the sixth paragraph should have read, "So, a projectile of the same shape that is heavier and slower will be less affected by drag than one that is lighter and FASTER." Sorry for the typing error.

One other comment. There are many Trad Gangers who talk about their arrows flying like lawn darts. The reason lawn darts fly so well is this concept of the center of gravity being in front of the center of pressure. Lawn darts have LOTS of weight up front and large vanes in the rear. The weight up front moves the center of gravity way forward and the large vanes cause the pressure from the air flowing across those large surfaces to create drag and laminar air flow (both of which produce air pressure on the vanes) that moves the center of pressure on the dart way towards the back of the dart. The vanes are usually straight and impart almost no spin, so rotation is almost totally lacking as a stabilizing force. Lawn darts fly very true, but they have lots of drag and would make terrible arrows for many reasons. But the analogy of their flight to the flight of arrows is a good one and is used by many of you guys appropriately to describe how your arrows shoot.

Allan
TGMM Family of the Bow

Offline Doc Nock

  • TGMM Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 9234
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2008, 11:00:00 AM »
Thanks, Allan. Made my brain sweat reading all that...but having been a gun nut myself in the past, much of what you shared brought back the logic of important stuff... Easy to forget how all that physical dynamic's stuff really does tie to archery...especially as we push the envelope.

Thanks for taking time to word such a well-done, thought-provoking piece without admonishments... just like Sgt. Friday on "Dragnet" used to say, "just the facts, ma'm, just the facts."

 :)
The words "Child" and "terminal illness" should never share the same sentence! Those who care-do, others question!

TGMM Family of the Bow

Sasquatch LB

Offline amar911

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2860
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2008, 11:05:00 AM »
George is absolutely correct. By drawing his lower poundage bow over a longer draw length, the weight versus draw length curve has more area below it which is how we can determine the potential energy stored in the bow. George stores lots of energy in those extra two inches that his friend does not have. That energy is then transfered to the arrow on release. We should also remember that the extra two inches is at the place where the draw weight is the highest -- at the end of the draw -- and that is where the most energy is stored for every inch of draw. In addition, the arrow stays on the string longer when shot from a longer draw, so the energy transfer can be transmitted longer and the bow can be more efficient in converting the stored potential energy to kinetic energy.

Allan
TGMM Family of the Bow

Offline Scott Gray

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 97
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2008, 01:16:00 PM »
Excellent post Allan    :bigsmyl:    I shoot a 42 lbs@28 inch Banshee(hybrid longbow)drawn 28.5 inches and use Gold Tip Entrada 600's cut to 29.5 inches with a 190 grain field point/broadhead. That gives me a FOC of 20.3% with a total arrow weight of 402 grains. This fall I expect full penetration if not total pass thru's on any deer I shoot. That is if I do my part and avoid the major bones.
BlackCreek Banshee 42 lbs@28

Online M60gunner

  • Contributing Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 3014
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2008, 04:10:00 PM »
This has become a very interesting and informative thread. I am not sold on the lighter weight bow (under 50lb.) but I am going to give it a try. I have to lose a about a 100 lbs. and I know I will lose some strengh. I have a set of 45lb. limbs (FF capable ) for my Bear takedown. I think I will try the ST Axis shafts (500 spine)with 100 grain inserts. I may get more draw length from the lighter limbs. Will these shafts be ok or should I go to my 400 spine. I draw 28.5 in now?

Offline Pointer

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1003
Re: For those who decreased draw weight..........
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2008, 08:14:00 PM »
It worked out great for me...I have a bad shoulder from way too much tennis and dropping 5 lbs in draw weight really helped me to enjoy shooting again.

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©