Longbow more forgiving then a Recurve??

[Dartwick]

Swampbuck. Yes looking around the internet we could find nearly all opinions on most anything.

But take that as whole as evidence that a position can not be reached in not valid. And it was insulting to the people who gave specific reasons for their opinions.

I think we choose to post here to be part a discourse. There has been a consensous opinion here that long bows are more forgiving or inconsistent form but that recurves offer higher performance. However some people disagreed or questioned this.
If you want to be part of discourse thats great - if youi want to simply disagree because it how you feel fine.

But to disagee with a point that no one made in this thread is just silly.

[swampbuck]

Sorry if that was taken the wrong way.  :p  

If a fella ask's which is easier or harder to shoot well I wonder what the overwhelming responce would be ???

After your quoted section I explained "personal" and "subjective to feel" but I guess that part was missed in any event I hope folks get out and try both for themselve's I myself after shooting both could tell no differance I shoot what I like and encourage others to shoot what they like,nothin silly bout that just common curtousy

Good luck all  

[Daddy Bear]

For me it is like this;

There is no question that my issued M40 rifle was far more stable and exceedingly more accurate than my M70 featherweight hunting rifle. For that matter, My issued M-14 used for service rifle competition was far more stable and exceedingly more accurate than my M70 featherweight. There is no way one would fair well using my M70 featherweight in any form of service, match, or sniper competition.

But, the same characteristics that hamper my featherweight in such competitions, make it shine as a mountain hunting rifle. It will never shoot the tiny groups of the M-40 or clean the course with lots of Xs like the M-14, but it will shoot killing shot accurate groups from any sort of field position while being light to carry and quick to point. A heavier rifle will be more stable and be superior for pinpoint accuracy but the featherweight will run rings around it shooting acceptable accuracy from field positions at normal hunting distances.

Comparing the standard longbow to the recurve may not be to the same extreme, but it's along the same line of thought. Hunting recurves tend to have shorter limbs whereas true longbows tend to have longer limbs. From my experience, the longer limbs tend to do a better job at casting arrows on the heavier end of the scale. Using a traditional heel down broke wrist hold on the longbow has always proved to be a very forgiving grip for me when hunting while tired and cold. Though using a pistol grip with a straight wrist gives me greater repeatibility on target, it becomes touchy when I'm tired and cold. I do find the shorter, faster recurve limbs to be a plus on added performance. But I also find that I'll pay for this added performance by having a touchy bow when my draw is a bit off, or the bow is held at an odd angle, or my release is not clean. I'll also see accuracy suffer from the longbow under such poor shooting conditions, but with the heel down grip, longer limbs, and heavier arrow, the accuracy doesn't degrade outside of the kill zone.

Howard Hill may not be for everyone and he may have had the help of Hollywood to embelish some of his accomplishments. But, I'm the opinion that the man was one heck of a great stickbow hunter who had a good grasp of things when it comes to longbows. I agree with much of that, including his words I quoted in my earlier post. For some or many this may not apply, but for those who have found this to be true, for them (including me) it is as true as true can get.

later,
Daddy Bear

[Otto]

I'm a good shot with a recurve.  By that I mean I'll average 75% on a 3D course.  I've been playing with longbows all year long and it's all I can do to break 50%.

The experiment is over and I'll be huntin with my trusty BW SA III again this year.

Keep an eye peeled on the classifieds.  There's apt to be a few good deals on some 50# @ 29" longbows before long.

[Desperado]

You said it Otto!!! I love my BW SAIII but I wanted to play around with a longbow so I bought a mint 55 lb.  Herb Meland Pronghorn from the classifieds several months ago. It is a superb bow, dead in the hand, sweet to shoot and truly mint. I love it...BUT...it is not my SA III. I can't get the low wrist thing down for a longbow, so the Pronghorn, hard/soft case, sock and arrows will be going to Denton with me this weekend for the blanket sale. I tip my hat to you Otto...we are on the same page!
It takes a great General to realize and admit he has been defeated! My experiment is over as well!
Cottonwood

[SteveB]

When longbow scores begin regularly beating those of recurves, then I will believe they are more forgiving. I mean what most consider to be "real" (hill style) LB's.
I am shooting Morrison ILF longbow limbs on a DAS riser right now - don't consider that combo a true lb, but it is a great combo.

Steve

[Apex Predator]

Speed is not a determining factor in my bow preference since I sold the wheels.  I've shot and owned bunches of recurves and longbows over the last couple of years.  I shot them all well.  For me a light weight, stable, and accurate weapon will be by my side.  I prefer a very heavy shaft as well.  I have settled on the Hill style straight profile longbows.  They are more consistent for me from day to day than any other bow has been.  First shot hunting accuracy impresses me most.  Don't those olympic recurve shooters shoot light weight recurves that are very long?  How many of you shoot recurves because they are 66" long and stable because of it?

[frassettor]

I have a 66 inch longbow coming, will that be more accurate as my 54 inch recurve since it is longer?

[swampbuck]

LOL frass thats kinda funny and here I was startin to think it was me making wave's hahahahahahaha

Seems Ron L blew that theory away with his Shrew's but thats a whole nuther subject

IMO if an archer truely believe's that bow X is more forgiving for them than bow Y than that is a true statement for that archer.Believing in ones self counts alot

Why is that if any bow is straped into a shooting machine they all shoot bullet holes without the human element yet if you were to do a search of actual score's and events where the human element was put back in recurves out perform LB's time and time again?

 More forgiving???

Yea for some they are , Daddy bear did a wonderful job explaining why for him well said by the way,but most of us will never be the shot Byron is or Howard was and I don't quite get how a LB can be more forgiving other than subjective feel when the human element can be removed or added than measured.

We need to shoot what we believe in reguardless of what the limb tips look like

Good luck with that 66incher I was plesently surprised at how well my 64"LB carried thru the brush compared to my 62" recurve.Much less snagging who woulda thunk

[Dartwick]

There are right and wrong answers. Even if we dont know them.

Everything isnt subjective although sometimes we dont know things and sometimes we cant prove what we suspect.

The concept of "forgiveness" is about a bow hitting with in a tight range despite an inconsistent hold or release.
Now it is possible that different bows are more or less forgiving to different errors - it may not be correct to simply say 1 type of bow is most forgiving.

But Im a bit weary of you repeatedly acting like this is some ponderous mystery or perhaps all in peoples heads. And people are being silly for discussing it.

If you simply believe we are wrong say so - instead of being dismissive. So far you have given us NOTHING with respect to the fogiveness topic.

Just because either you dont care or you cant get your head atround it(I have no idea which) doesnt mean its not worth other people trying to figure out or understand.

[Steve D.]

I am fairly confused on the matter now, especially after reading all of the comments in this forum.

I have been shooting a Dan Quillian longbow now for the last 4 years and have fell in love with traditional archery.  I love to shoot the bow and go on occasional black tail deer hunts.

Since I seem to be hooked on the sport, I have been thinking of upgrading and buying a Black Widow.  Prior to this forum, I had believed that a recurve was easier to handle and more forgiving than a LB.  That is why I was focusing my attention on buying a BW PTF one piece recurve.

Many of the people in this forum discuss the difficulties of going from a recurve to a longbow.  What about the reverse? Does anyone have insight on what to expect going from a longbow to a recurve?

[Dartwick]

There are 3 general differences between recurves and long bows that make the recurve genrally easier to shoot - its a messy issue because these arent traits actually inherent to the bow types.

1 Recurves are often closer to center shot than long bows. The closer to center shot the less picky the bow will as to shafts. Most shooters bows are not tuned as well as they could be.

2 Recurves risers are often heavier than long bows risers. Weight at the handle makes a bow more stable or have less shock.

3 Recurves usually have higher FPS than long bows. Faster arrows means less drop at a given range.


Those are the simple points that almost all of us agree on. And as you can see its more an issue of features common to recurves  than inherent to recurves.
And they can explain why the average guy will have better luck with a recurve than a long bow. But there are more nuanced aspects of bow comparisions that result in more questions.

[swampbuck]

Guess it's time to bow out      

Archery is 10% mechanics and 90% mental if somebody can give me an answer as to why when the human factor is removed there is little if any differance in accuracy and when it's put back in there is a clear winner please PM me.

I luv my LB's by the way and if it's all in my head I guess I've covered 90% funny how we all see respect from a differnt light sadly it even has to be a rule

Have a good one fella's

[frassettor]

Im out of this one to, what started out as a simple question....turned into this  :confused:

[Deff]

Just to put my 2-bits in--- I have a pair of Samick bows that I hunt with. One is a 56" Equis recurve and the other is a 62" Verna longbow. They are almost identical in the shape of the handles, draw weights, sight windows and shelves (both are close to center shot). I shoot the same arrows with both and with heavy arrows(about 700 grains) they cast very similarly.

The longbow is noticably less sensitive to a bad release or inconcistant grip than the recurve but in my opinion the practical difference is not real significant.

[String Cutter]

Fellas numbers don't lie... At the bow shoots I go to the winning recurve score is usually atleast 20-30 points higher then the winning longbow scores and that's on a 300 point total score card... Heavier risers and faster arrows = better scores.
That being said... I'm a die hard longbowman. I love the looks, feel, and even the sound of my longbows... But, The best shooting( for scores)for me was a big old Black Widow PSA... I could shot pretty good tight groups with it.... But Dang was it heivey to carry around for hours and never could get it silenced...

[SteveB]

1 Recurves are often closer to center shot than long bows. The closer to center shot the less picky the bow will as to shafts. Most shooters bows are not tuned as well as they could be.

2 Recurves risers are often heavier than long bows risers. Weight at the handle makes a bow more stable or have less shock.

3 Recurves usually have higher FPS than long bows. Faster arrows means less drop at a given range.


Those are the simple points that almost all of us agree on. And as you can see its more an issue of features common to recurves than inherent to recurves.
 

We agree because they can be subjectively measured and compared.

How do you measure "more forgiving"?
Only way I can see is by sucess such as comparative scoring in a shoot. Those results do not bear out the lb more forgiving theory.

I'm with SB - 90% mental for most of us. Most forgiving is what you have confidence in.

Steve

[Daddy Bear]

Tournament scoring with a heavy riser recurve and light target arrows has absolutely no bearing on backpack hunting in the mountains with a longbow and heavy arrows when you are on the 5th day and you are cold, wet, and tired, and you need to place a killing shot on a wary game animal 20 yards away. You sure will understand the meaning of forgiving then. That pinpoint precision heavy bow with its ultra light arrow which needs to be shot in a just so fashion will sudenly become a finiky monster. You'll feel like you're picking up BBs while wearing boxing gloves.

That same wonderfully stable bow which is so easy for shooting the center out of a stationary target will suddenly become an absolute lead sled slug when swinging on flushed birds. All of that stability will become a truck axle and logging chain when it comes time to work the bow. For that matter, If we took a stationary target mat and shrunk it down to around a foot in diameter and then had the target move in random directions; I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the top 300 shooters would fail abysmally, whereas the top longbow hunters would fare well. Now switch the mat out for a chunk of coal randomly tossed into the air at 12-15yards to simulate a flushed bird. How well do you think the top 300shooters would fair compared to the top longbow hunters?

There is a world of difference between ease of learning in general with a recurve, ease of tournament marksmanship with recurves, and fine handling characteristics in a hunting longbow that is used not only for big game, but also for small game, birds, and such.

Now, don't get your feathers ruffled. It all goes back to my earlier post which in essence says, if the shoe fits. Clearly Fred Bear, Glenn St. Charles, etc, did well with a hunting recurve. But for the same token, Howard Hill, Byron Ferguson, etc, did well with a longbow. The guys who trick shoot and/or hunt with the longbow will take maximum advantage of certain traits in the longbow making it a positive. Whereas the target guys and recurve hunters will look at these same longbow traits as being a negative. Same goes in reverse, so my positives in what I get from the longbow may very well be your negatives in what you get from the same longbow.

That's my story and I'll stick to it.

later,
Daddy Bear

[pdk25]

Maybe longbows are more forgiving.  I don't know.  What I am fairly certain of is that regardless of how convinced people seem to be, no real evidence has been shown one way or the other.  It would be very difficult to prove one way or the other.  How do you duplicate a poor release in a consistant manner?  As far as blanket statements comparing how great recurve shooters are compared to longbow shooters and vice versa in different situations, the comparisons are flawed.  How many people shoot the recurve compared to the longbow.  That is a bias.  You would need to have the same exact people dedicate the same amount of time and effort with both the longbow and the recurve and then duplicate the poor releases and then have an objective method of measuring the result.  Not going to happen anytime soon with a large enough test group.  Any claims that one or the other is better is nothing more than speculation at this point.  Doesn't mean there isn't a correct answer to the question.  It just means that whether you are absolutely convinced one way or the other, you may be wrong.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I can't make blanket statements to "how it is"....only how it is for ME:

Recurves, by thier design (weight, grip, etc.) cause me to "settle in" and shoot in a more disciplined style. If I had to make a shot at 40 yards, I would shoot a recurve with a heavy riser. I am not comfortable shooting a recurve in a quick, odd angled, awkward manner.

With longbows, my release time speeds up, I pay almost zero attention to the angle of the limbs... horizontal, vertical, it doesn't matter to me. While I am LESS likely to hit a ping pong ball at 40 yards with a longbow, I am MORE likely to put it on a deer's rib cage at 8 yards, REAL quick and smooth.

I think Howard Hill said something along the lines of deciding whether one wants to be a hunter or target archer, you can't do both well. I think my description above centers around that.

All that said, I enjoy both. My shooting style does change from one to the other. I'm not sure if my description makes a longbow more forgiving for me, but certainly different.