About to give up on my Hill...

[brackshooter]

Well, I have had this for three months or so, have gone through about every arrow I can think of, and still cant find one to fly straight out of it.  I am 6'5" and draw 30" with this bow.  Its right at 67 or 68# at my draw.  Its 68 inches long.  I am shooting a tab and it has a straight grip.  I LOVE this bow, its gonna kill me to sell it, but the frustration is killing me more.  I have tried:  2117s, 2020s, 2018s, 2016s, beman 400s, 340s, and 300s, all with field tips ranging from 100-250 grains.  In the 340s and 400s I have tried brass inserts (100 grain) as well.  I have shot ALOT of bows, and never had a problem getting arrows to fly.  My grip is consistent and I feel like my anchor and release is ok.  I have a recurve that I shoot just fine, took me all of 5 minutes to get that tuned.  Problem is, I love my Hill and would really like to shoot nothing else.  Anyone have an answer?  This has become my white whale, I swear, and you guys are probably sick of hearing about it, but any ideas are appreciated.  

[Rick James]

How do you grip this bow?--I have found that the light mass weight of the Hills make them very easy to torque and this can affect arrow flight--I have had this problem in the past--Until I started gripping the bow alot more from the side with the big knuckle at the bottom of the thumb along the centerline of the back of the grip. It feels a little funny at first but if your arrows straighten up like mine did you won't have any problems getting used to it!!
rick

[brackshooter]

Rick,
thanks for the reply, I grip my bow just like you do, the "suitcase" grip, majority of my hand on the side of the grip, second knuckle of my thumb almost straight behind the grip.

[Shaun]

Heavy wood arrows about 55/60 or stiffer if you use heavy points - 700 grns total weight or so. May also have to use a much tighter grip and/or shift your hand position - I like the hard squeeze grip approach.

[buckeye_hunter]

Can you grab it with only your pointer, index  finger and thumb?  Fold your other two fingers down.  Never shot a Hill, but it might work.

[Orion]

For what it's worth, I generally overspine my Hills by 10# or so.  For example, I shoot 70-75# spines out of my 60#@28 Big 5.  That's with cedars, would probably need to go even heavier with hardwoods.  On the other hand, I can shoot arrows spined right at bow weight as well and they shoot good.  Unfortunatly, with your long draw length, it's hard to find wood arrows.  I think Surewood has sitka spruce in lengths longer than 32 inches.  Though a 32 inch shaft might work for you, at least with a field point.  Usually gain an eights of an inch on the nock end.  If you grind your point taper to abouy 7/8 inch, it would probably be long enough.  At your draw length, you would probably want woodies at 85-90# spine or higher.

You didn't say what kind of arrow flight you're getting.  That would help diagnose the problem.  What's your brace height?  My Hills shoot good at about 6 3/4 inches, with the nock about 9/16 to 5/8 inches above perpendicular, nocking the arrow under the nock point.  Also, despite what HH said about gripping the bow tightly, I've found a more gentle grip to work better.  Not only are you less likely to torque the bow, it also reduces felt hand shock.  

Did you check limb straightness.  I've never seen a Hill with a twisted limb, but I suppose it's possible, and the longer the draw length, the more any twist or off center limb will affect the arrow flight.

Sorry I can't be of more help.  Good luck.

[Mohillbilly]

Take a look at this book, it may help with shooting.
Bret

http://www.millerlongbow.com/default.cfm?id=119

[brackshooter]

Arrow flight varies, but almost always have pretty severe right to left tail wagging in flight.  Right now my brace height is about 6 1/2", but I have been from 6-7" and back again.  My nock is at 5/8", and has also been moved numerous times.  I havent checked for limb twist and will when I get home, but like you I cant imagine twisting one of those limbs!

[Night Wing]

Brackshooter,

I don't shoot carbon arrows, but I have a long 30" draw length too and I shoot 31" long aluminum arrows. I also shoot with a tab. With all the aluminum arrow sizes you gave, I think they are all too weak in spine especially if you're shooting a 31" arrow. I would have started tuning your bow with 2219s and 2315s. Years ago, about 30 years, many big guys (250 pounds or more in physical weight) used to shoot 65-70 pound recurves and longbows. Everyone of them shot 2216s or 2219s depending on a short or long draw length and those with a long draw like yourself, with arrows cut to 31" long, they all shot the venerable 2219. Just checked Easton's site and all three sizes are still available in the XX75 Camo Hunter. Those big guys with long 30" draw lengths and 31" arrows, shot three, 5" shield cut feathers on their arrows, but parabolic feathers will also do. Many of them back them used a Jo-Jan fletcher which put a 11 degree twist in their feathers. I think you should try the 2219 or a 2315 aluminum if your arrows are cut 31" long. Don't give up on that Hill yet.         Almost forgot, they all shot the 125 grain Bear Razorhead broadhead too. With the screw in broadhead Bear heads, I think they were 145 grains.

[mike g]

Brackshooter....
   Have mentioned your problem to Craig at Howard Hill maybe he can help you figure out whats going on....
   And have you tried one of the Arrow Dynamics carbon arrows....They are suppose to be able to shoot out of everything....

[Fletcher]

I thought along the same lines as Night Wing, that you are underspined.  With woods you are going to need at least an 80 lb spine and likely more.  I'll see if I can come up with something.

[kojac]

I agree the 2219 or2315's should work for ya.

good luck!!

[One eye]

You need to try stiffer arrows.  I love my Hills.
Dan

[SCATTERSHOT]

Just a thought, but in line with the back to basics approach, are you sure you draw 30"? Have you actually had someone measure your draw as you shoot? Usually your draw length shortens with a Hill style grip, and then you're working with a set of presupposed conditions that may not be correct to begin with.

Once you do that, Craig can put you on the right path for arrow spine.

Good luck!

[Bill Skinner]

Hello again.  When you first got your Hill, we sent a few messages back and forth.  Sorry it didn't work.  In the arrow classifieds, there is someone selling barrel tapered shafts.  He has shafts up to 33", and he will answer questions about what spine to use at your draw length.  His name is Don Stokes and he has a lot of different spines, hopefully he can help.

[Raminshooter]

Bracshooter,

I agree with others, you need to find stiffer shafts and also experiment with tip wt.  You should try shooting 2219's w/160's on them and cut them an inch longer than your actual draw.  You could also try the 2216 w/160's or with 145's at the same length.  I don't think you are far away from "perfection" with your hill...you just need some different shafts.  Good luck.

[Don Stokes]

Thanks for the plug, Bill.     Brackshooter, I agree with Orion that you probably need 85-90 in wood, and something around 2219 in aluminum. I've had limited experience with aluminum, and none with carbon. My chart says with wood you would need 20# over your draw weight with your long draw. The closest thing I have left in my barreled shafts is 80-85 in 31 or 33" length. If you use a bow quiver or heavy rubber string silencers, which reduce spine needs a bit, the 80-85's might be just right.

[Daddy Bear]

Originally posted by brackshooter:
Rick,
thanks for the reply, I grip my bow just like you do, the "suitcase" grip, majority of my hand on the side of the grip, second knuckle of my thumb almost straight behind the grip.

Forgive me if I'm missing something here, I've had a long day. But, that grip sounds way bad to me for a straight grip longbow. If I were to alter my grip in such a manner, I would expect to induce all kinds of throttling of the handle upon release which would play havoc on the arrow.

Somewhere there is a web page that depicts a bread and butter method of gripping a straight Hill handle. You need to get the meat of the heel along the thumb behind the handle. Regardless of your grip pressure technique, you don't want to rotate that support away from the rear of the handle to the side so that it twists upon release. You cannot shoot that handle like a recurve.

Also, if you are indeed drawing 30-inches or better, a 70inch bow would be most ideal for stability. You can shoot shorter, but you'll have a bit less stability than someone shooting a 66" bow with a 26-inch draw. I was just talking to Craig yesterday about draw lengths so I can tell you for sure his bows are measured to the exact back of his shelf. Have someone mark your shaft at that point to indeed confirm your draw length. From that point, I have faith in old man Kelly Peterson "Arrows by Kelly". Find his old arrow chart and match it to your actual draw length and the bows draw weight. I'd be willing to wager if at that point you couldn't get good flight, it would be your hold, release, and/or follow thru and not spine.

Good Luck,
Daddy Bear

[Steelhead]

I am sure you shooting form Brack is in good shape with your recurve.i think working on your grip on that bow a bit would be something to consider and  like was allready mentioned by some 2216s,2315s or 2219s would be worth a look.Hope you work it out!

[Daddy Bear]

Try this:

http://www.howardhillshooters.com/hillgrip/hillgrip.html