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Author Topic: How long can you hold at full draw?  (Read 3359 times)

Offline joebuck

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2008, 10:47:00 AM »
Hey Biggie, remember first time we ever bow hunted together at the Oasis..you put on snap shooitng clinic..0-3 and went home early!!!
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Offline bigcountry

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2008, 10:47:00 AM »
Myself, I won't have a bow that I can't hold at full draw for 10 seconds and make a shot.  Thats me.  I have a 66lb widow longbow, and I won't take it tree stand hunting because I can't hold it for that long.  I shoot the thing great off the ground target shooting.  

But I am a hunter, and in hunting, too many things happen.

Who was it who said, "I seen alot of snap shooters, but never a good one".

Online Terry Green

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2008, 10:50:00 AM »
Joey,

Yeah...he's a crack shot,...and took from Cardineli.

It may be hard for you to master, but not others.

It is harder for me to hold than it is for others.

IMO,....both work well for hunting depending on how one is geared.  I came to grips with that long ago.

Only one style is SUPERIOR.....and each individual has to find out which style is SUPERIOR for themselves.


Now what about Cohutta?...we can walk and shoot some of that rust off.
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Offline Biggie Hoffman

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2008, 10:58:00 AM »
Quote
Who was it who said, "I seen alot of snap shooters, but never a good one".  
I don't know who it was, but I'll compare trophy rooms with him :-)

Joey, 0 for 3? Sounds familiar but I think that's what you did on P&Y bucks last year wasn't it?
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Online Terry Green

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2008, 11:00:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bigcountry:


Who was it who said, "I seen alot of snap shooters, but never a good one".
I'd like to know who as well...
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Offline joebuck

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2008, 11:01:00 AM »
Terry you know i'm too fat! I don't trust the CPR stuff either..people do chicken out...Besides i heard of your stump shooting talent...i don't want any of that!!.....food for thought.......2009 St. Jude Benefit Tradgang World Championships...Calhoun Ga.or Amicola Falls, Ga..( sponsored by traditional clubs of various states)......i'll help you run it!!...but i don't want to shoot with Coots!!
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Offline bigcountry

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2008, 11:09:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terry Green:
 
Quote
Originally posted by bigcountry:


Who was it who said, "I seen alot of snap shooters, but never a good one".
I'd like to know who as well... [/b]
I thought it was howard hill.  I could be wrong.  I might have read Stacy Groscup or Fergonson said it.  Don't quote me as I can't remember.  It was just a saying that stuck with me.

I won't dog anybodies way of shooting.  Everybodies got to find thier way.  I just see alot of new shooters that are way overbowed, snap shooting because they can't hold the bow.  For people whos been doing it for years, it works for em.

Offline bigcountry

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2008, 11:10:00 AM »
They Terry, I have seen you shoot on clips and you are not what I call a snap shooter.  More of  smooth draw, release motion.  

You wouldn't refer to the way you shoot as snap would you?

Online Terry Green

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2008, 11:22:00 AM »
Howard Hill was a snap shooter....

Howard did say "I've seen a lot of instinctive shooters, but never a good one"...and that was earlier in his target days.....

Later on when he started hunting and left target shooting, he said 'target and hunting aren't the same, you better decide what you want to do'....and he stated that he made many instinctive shots on game.

Yeah, I consider myself a snap shooter.
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Offline bigcountry

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2008, 11:28:00 AM »
I thought i would mess up that quote.  :biglaugh:  

Thanks for clearing it up.  

I guess I have the wrong idea of snap shooting.  

I see a few different styles these days.  I see some pull back 1/2 way ( I assume gap aim), and then in a fast motion come back to anchor and it fly.  I always called that snap.  

I used to pull back and let it fly as soon as I hit anchor.  But in the last 2 years, I will pull back hold about 2 sec.  I know you can shoot and kill so the proof is in the pudding, but my shooting has improved 10 fold since I quit snap shooting.  Everybodies got to find thier way.

Offline joebuck

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2008, 11:38:00 AM »
"My Method of Shooting the Bow and Arrow" by Howard Hill........Howards describes himself as a Instintive shooter but not a pure instintive. He furthers explains his method of Aiming as Indirect Imaginary Point method..In short he used his point in his secondary vision as reference. Howard was so fluent with his anchor and release, it hard to see his pause but it is short lived. but he pauses........i do not know the evolution of the "term" snap shooting but any fundimental archery coach will describe it as releasing the arrow before one is at constant anchor. IMO it is a deadly hunting style for close distances(IMO 10 yards and in).....Best Snap Shooter I have ever known is John Hood from Elberton ,Ga.. Shot many rounds with John and we talked about style and stuff...He really does grip and rip it!


Now Biggie....on your Mule Deer last year...did you snap shoot on your 1st,3rd or 5th arrow?
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Offline Biggie Hoffman

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #71 on: August 12, 2008, 11:39:00 AM »
UNCLE! UNCLE!  OK Joey.....you win!!
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Online Terry Green

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #72 on: August 12, 2008, 02:42:00 PM »
Howard was a self professed snap shooter, as was Fred Bear, and Been Pearson....I've yet to see a pause on any of Hill's clips I've seen...and there's plenty here on Trad Gang....He has a dynamic release on all of them.

Now as far as 'snap shooter'....and its ORIGINAL meaning.....


The old timers that coined the phrase 'snap shooting' or 'snap shooter' that I personaly know/knew, was just phrase to describe a style of shooting.....someone who shot fast without holding, or never stopped pulling. Hill and Pearson were both great shooters, and refered to in those days as snap shooters....seems Fred Bear called himself a snap shooter as well.

As of late, others have miss used that phrase and have put a negative spin on it, mostly by those that don't understand what snap shooting is as deemed by our forefathers......and referring to snap shooting as out of control shooting and leading to target panic. I just wish the term snap shooter would quit being miss used.

Target panic is a mental issue, and causes uncontrollable releases....short drawing is also a mental issue, as the one shooting knows they are suppose to come to anchor.

Snap shooting is a style of 'releasing' or shooting, ...target panic, or out of control shooting is a condition.

And here's it is from one of the ORIGINALS.....

   
Quote
Originally posted by Ron LaClair:
I've been shooting a bow since I was a squirt... but I didn't really start to learn about form and style until I started shooting competition 49 years ago. While we never "stop" learning there are some things that become apparent after 50 years of study. One thing I do know for sure is there is no absolute style when it comes to shooting a bow.

When someone says you have to shoot this way or that way because all the top shots shoot that way, I say baloney. Some of the best shooters I've been privileged to know shot with what some would call an "unorthodox" style. Jim Pickering used a "Dead" release and high anchor when he competed in some of the top tournaments of the day in the 1960's. Everyone else in the Country shot with what was call "Power Archery" Jim whipped them all. He was a National Champion and a PAA Champion using a style that everyone said was "wrong". Jim Caspers another Archery Champion shot with a high elbow on his drawing arm. He actually pumped his arm up and down after he was at full draw, he said it helped him build up back tension.

As for the term "Snap shooter", I've been hearing it for 50 years and it was probably used before that. It has "always" been used to refer to someone that shot in one fluid motion, and whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.

I was privileged to talk to Fred Bear many times over the years and I remember him calling himself a "snap shooter". He said, "I'm a snap shooter,..I concentrate from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet". He said he couldn't shoot a compound because the let off interfered with the rhythm of his shooting style and broke his concentration.

"Good snap shooters"?...I've seen a lot of them. In the early years of the GLLI (Great Lakes Longbow Invitational) when scores were kept , we had the best shooters in the Country shooting for the honor of top dog. The shooters that won that shoot more often than not were what I call "Snap shooters" Very controlled, very meticulous, very accurate shooters whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.

Someone that "does not" come to full draw or touch their anchor before they release have what's called "target panic or what use to be called "IT". They are NOT...repeat NOT, snap shooters.

I think the problem is like what Terry said people today are "mis using" the term "snap shooter".  Snap shooting is definitely not an inferior style of shooting a bow, however it must be realized that not everyone can master the snap shooting style. Those that can't may end up with target panic and be called snap shooters but in reality they are  not.
C'mon Joey.....come chase bears with us!!!

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Offline joebuck

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #73 on: August 12, 2008, 03:35:00 PM »
The term snap shooting has been a negative term forever. Fred Bear talks about it in his bible.

"Snap Shooting:
Snap Shooting, closely allied with "freezing , is an affliction affecting the coordination between the eye and muscle that makes it impossible to reach full draw before releasing the arrow".............The Archer's Bible.....Mr. Fred Bear.

Most Snap Shooters i put in this category. The other category is the "Instinctive Snap Shooter". Really good ones are far few between. Most of us do not have the  athletic skills to be a good to great one. So whats a good one snap shooter bowhunter..Well, one that has killed big game in his last 10-10 shots ,of coarse!!...So coming to a complete pause is necessary to help us get our bow arm and anchor sychronized. it may take a 3 seconds, 10 seconds or a mille second like Howard Hill who was not an instintive snap shooter.. he shot in a snap! but he had secondary, indirect vision working with a pause.


I'm coming bear hunting.. can i bring my Bad Boy Buggy?.......hey you ever heard the story about jeff Roberts and some others at a TBG bear hunt and something about to much fire water and Jeff going down the road with a bear in back of his truck and he didn't know it?
Aim down your arrow because thats where it's going.

Offline Biggie Hoffman

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2008, 03:57:00 PM »
Ya'll can scold me but Papa Bear was wrong about that one.
It could easily have been the term used then but Ron Laclairs definition is more accurate
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Offline Gary Logsdon

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2008, 04:14:00 PM »
Fred described his method as "controlled snap shooting" . . . very similar to how I shoot.  I start "aiming" before I ever put pressure on the bowstring ("pick a spot"), and continue to aim/focus until hitting anchor or until it "feels right", then I LET-R RIP!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline joebuck

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2008, 04:19:00 PM »
Fred Bear......"In condemning snap shooting, it must be pointed out that there are TWO kinds of snap shooters. The short-draw variety....yada yada........on the otherhand, the truely instinctive shooter can also be a snap shooter." The Archers Bible..

So 2 kinds of Snap shooters.......How dare you Biggie.....oh my gosh..
  :scared:
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Online Terry Green

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2008, 07:21:00 PM »
Snap shooters n Panic shooters....there, now its settled.

What's a bad boy buggy?  Aint sure they allow those in the Wilderness.

Oh, I know a guy that's went 10 for 10.      :D  

   Dang, just can\\'t seem to find a pause....

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Offline Biggie Hoffman

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2008, 07:53:00 PM »
Joey NOW you post his whole thought.....

Papa Bear, I apologize.
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Offline redant 60/65

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Re: How long can you hold at full draw?
« Reply #79 on: August 12, 2008, 08:19:00 PM »
Got to put my 2 cents in, it seems like it all works pretty good, for every body. Holding, snap shooting. This is a good topic. If ever you get a chance to shoot with Kingwouldbe, Dave out here in Calforina, you will get to see one of the best shots on the West coast, he uses a clicker has for years, and you all have seen the game he has killed. I think he usualy hold about 5- 10 seconds, with a 60# bow. I think it's more a mental thing shooting. Holding, aiming, when it feels right you shoot.  :saywhat:
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