Has anyone ever ...

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Was just looking at the 'bent Magnus' thread, and several say it happens with any broadhead. Just for my own interest, have any of you ever had a 190 grain Grizzly or a Ben Pearson Deadhead bend ON IMPACT or PENETRATION of any ANIMAL TISSUES? In all the years of testing, often TRYING to make them bend, I've not had a single bend on either of those two broadheads. I have bent both trying to remove them from heavy bones they were embedded in, but not from the shot itself. I have, however, bent all the lighter Grizzly BH's - except the new, harder, version of the 160 grain model. Just curious.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Hornseeker]

That is exactly why I shoot them Ed...cause of the fact that you haven't had ONE fail yet... I think that is a testament..

And no...haven't bent one yet... only on rocks...

[Widowbender]

Doc...I hope you're feeling better...

David

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

David, things don't look so good. I'm trying my best to get to where I can make the flight back to the States, and it looks like there's a back operation in my near future as soon as I can get there; but I'm trying my best to get things sorted in time to make next year's buff trip!

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[TomMcDonald]

Doctor Ed, Thanks for all of your valuable studies.
I've got half a dozen 190gr Tusker Concords and I'm wondering if you've ever had experience with these tips.
Tom.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Tom, the Tusker Concords I tested with were a while back. They were the head I used in the tip-testing, and were chosen for those test because they were the easiest broadhead to bend - BUT DON'T JUDGE THE CURRENTLY-MADE TUSKERS BY THAT. John has done a lot to improve the Tusker heads since then, but I haven't had a chance to test any of the ones he currently makes, and can't give you an accurate opinion of their performance potential.

First time you get a chance on a freshly-downed animal, test them out on a few 'tough shots' and see how they hold up - and let us know how it goes. Best test shot for structural strength is at an oblique angle into heavy bone.  

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Molson]

"new harder version of the 160 grain model" is right!  I've had a couple from my recent packs so hard no stone or file could do more than make the edge shiny.  And brittle... Just a little bit of side pressure and they snap right in front of the furrule!  Most have been great but there are a few to watch out for.  

If you get one of these super hard heads, I'd recommed you just toss it off to the side to use for practice.  Don't waste your time trying to make it work.

[TomMcDonald]

Ed.
Thanks, that's a surprise to hear about what they were previously like.
I'm hunting Pig and Goat in 3 weeks so I'll let you know.
I will also take along some 155gr Concords as a comparison and give you the data.

[Jerry Jeffer]

The only BH that has ever bent on me was a WW.

[Pat B.]

Are all the 160's and 190 the same hardness, with the other weights being softer ?

 
If ya can't sharpen the 160's and they're brittle they aren't very desirable.

I've bent the tip on a Zwickey or two and a WW..
But that's out of quite a number of animals.

[Biggie Hoffman]

Jerry, those are made by magnus too. Did you bend it on a critter?

[Jerry Jeffer]

Yes I did Biggie. Unfortunately never recovered it either.

[Molson]

Pat B.-

I'm not saying all the 160's are hard and brittle. I just found a couple recently. Three heads out of the last four packs I bought were hard like that.  Two were in the same pack. It's a great head and probably just had a bad run on a few somewhere down the line.  It's nothing I would worry about when buying them.  I'm just saying if you find a head that your metal rasp won't even bite into, don't waste your time trying.  Just use it for practice.

[James Wrenn]

I have had two heads bend in 30years.One was a magnus that rolled up like the one on the other thread.The other was an intercepter that bent after a passthrough when it hit a rockpile in a shower of sparks.I still shoot Simmons but never shot another Magnus untill the stinger came out.I love the stinger and the new buzzcut.

[tradwannabe]

If you have a head that is SUPER HARD you might want to experiment with it. get out your torch and heat it to dark red and quench in oil. you will have annealed it and re-hardened it. if it is too soft, try again but quench in water. If still too soft, use salt water (super saturated-heated water, add salt, dissolve, repeat until salt is lying on the bottom of container).
if it is too hard the first time, try air cooling (no fan, just let it sit). if still too hard, warm to cherry red and air cool.
somewhere you will get the temper that you want, as long as you dont over heat it and burn the carbon out of the metal.
Rob
no- i'm not an engineer but an engineering mechanical technologist designer.

[JC]

What's up Doc? Hope you are well.

Had a Deadhead seperate at the top weld and bend on an angular hit of the scapula...but, dat was my fault...and the deer died anyway (opened him up like a can of soup clipping a couple major blood vessels in the neck) so I can't see it as a failure necessarily. Only one I've seen do that thought. Usually have one in my quiver all the time.

I'm not so sure you could bend a properly set up 190 Griz (or a 160 STOS for that matter) on any game with equipment used by most of us mortals. Seems like shaft or insert failure would happen long before that...

[Littlefeather]

JC, I'm still carrying one of Docs single bevel Pearson Deadheads from the study. I've been waiting for the proper opportunity on a hog(Doc's wishes). No pressure!    

Doc, you hang in there! The Buff's will wait. You take care of yourself now! You need anything just ask. Can you remember the specifics on the Deadhead you gave me? It's kinda a limited edition Deadhead.  :D   Thanks. CK

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Tom, looking forward to seeing how each works for you.

JC, that's precisely the type of incidents I want to see if folks have had. I can damage most commonly used broadheads almost on demand, with an adverse shot into moderately heavy bone - just the type shot you're talking about. It doesn't have to be a scapula on a big animal either; the scapular ridge on a small animal will do, as will the humerus, femur, or a glancing impact on the spine on a downward angled shot - and sometimes even a downward or 'long angle' glance on the curve of a rib.

You're the first I've found so far with a Deadhead failure. Was it an old Deadhead, or one you've recently acquired? Only ask that because I saw some Deadheads that were part of a huge batch purchased on that 'bay' spot on the web a year or so a go that were obviously seconds someone had gotten their hands onto. They were unused, but most of them had welds that were lose enough to wiggle by hand. You can easily spot them, because the amount of weld material is very small, compared to the originals (I've had my DB Deadheads since the 1960's - and still use them in the testing). Regardless, I've always figured that the weld would be the weakest point on a Deadhead, but I've not been able to get one to let go there.

Curtis, Yes, that single-bevel Deadhead is part of a "VERY LIMITED PRODUCTION RUN". I got a very few unbeveled Deadheads from Ben Pearson Jr. I've saved one in its unbeveled form. The others I single-beveled; and they were used in part of the penetration-comparison testing of single-bevel vs. double-bevel, in which matching bevel-induced rotation/fletching-rotation was compared to  mismatched arrow and broadhead-induced rotation and how each compares to the penetration shown by identical broadheads with a double bevel. The other heads I used in that testing were Outback Supremes and Outback Hunters - each supplied to me with all three bevel types (double and L/R single). That gave three widely divergent broadhead profiles for the testing, and all showed the same pattern of results. Now go blood that single-bevel deadhead so that it's fit to become a 'wall hanger'.

Anyone else that's bent either a Deadhead or the 190 gr. Grizzly on animal tissues?

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Steve H.]

I had a recent pack of Grizzly 190's that were so hard the file just slides across the metal.

I have bent Tuskers and Magnus and I think with lots of efforts and trying to bent a Ribtek once but not on anything soft like animal tissue.

[TomMcDonald]

I was just thinking about these overly hard grizzlies that people are talking about. would it not be possible to very slightly anneal them by putting them in the oven for a while? Has anyone done this?