Your thoughts on "The Void"

[Bonebuster]

A friend of mine called me at about 1:00 this afternoon to help in the recovery of a deer he had hit with an arrow shot from his compound.

He had climbed down after an uneventful morning sit, and spotted a young buck bedded in the Alfalfa.

He guessed the deer would eventually rise and head for the cover of the woods, so he got comfortable and waited. The buck did just that.

With a little rain, and a little wind he was able to move to intercept the deer, and was offered a twenty five yard shot from ground level. The hit was high in the chest. No pass thru, but two holes.

He watched the deer cover four hundred yards across the field, and slow to a walk for the last little bit. As soon as it reached some tall native grasses, it bedded down. Through his binoculars he could see it, head up and alert.
One hour, two hours, and finally its head went down. About halfway across the field, he noticed it`s head was up again. This time he did his best to get out of sight, and back out. Thats when I got the call from his cell phone.

The plan was for me to become visible from about four hundred yards, to keep the attention of the deer while he snuck around from behind into the wind to try and get another arrow in the deer.
I have no weapon as I do not have permission to hunt there and the landowner is gone.

Before long my buddy steps into view, and gives me thumbs up. The deer was bedded next to several large felled trees that had been there for years, and he took him with a great shot through the center of the neck, because the body was totally blocked.

I have always been a believer that therewas NO SUCH THING as the "void". The non-existent space
under the spine, and above the lungs. BUT, upon inspection of the hit, and the damage done by the
Thunderhead, the lungs were totally untouched.
The broadhead holes clearly visible from inside the chest cavity, and the lungs in my hands without a cut in them. They had a bruised appearance, and the chest cavity had some blood in it, but not nearly enough to kill the deer.

I have no pictures because my wife had her digital camera(s) at a baby shower today.
It was not a traditional kill, and am not sure if I should post this, but it COULD be an issue that a trad hunter might come across.

I have seen the pictures of a disected deer showing no possibility of a "void", but today, I saw proof that an arrow can pass over the lungs, and under the spine. I had the lungs in my hands, and there were NO cuts, or nicks in them.

He said, that before he shot, the deer just didn`t look right, and was actually paying no attention to me. I think he was having difficulty breathing, and would have died eventually.

There it is, take it for what it`s worth.
Maybe the disected deer in the photo I saw had bigger lungs than this buck.

[Danny Roberts]

It's there !!

[doug77]

yes it is

[Sharpster]

Oh, I suspect this is going to be a long one.
 

I will just say that I have tracked many, many deer over the years and the only ones that were not eventually recovered were those with the "right behind the shoulder, but high" hits.

I know that this is supposed to be physically/biologically impossible but, I'm not totally convinced one way or the other.

Ron

[SteveB]

Anatomically impossible. The expantion and contraction of the cavity is what brings air into and out of the lungs. They do not shrink and expand inside the cavity. Your example may have been a sick deer with extremely unusual circumstances that most likely no one here will ever experiance.

There is no void in a healthy animal.
 
Virtually all cases of an alleged "void" hit are never recoevered so there is no way of telling where the actual hit was. Anyone who has shot a few deer have been surprised on some recovered animals as to where the arrow actually hit as opposed to where it really did. Most likely what happens to most "void" hits.

There are cases of a deer taking a dbl lung hit and surviving, but the verified ones are extremely rare.

Steve

[Harmless]

Been there, done that. I'v seen this first hand. There is a "Void". Very similar story with the same results. No damage to the lungs, just under the spine with minimal bleeding. I'v done it and seen it happen to fellow archers.

[Shawn Leonard]

It is not really a void, it is the upper part of the back loins. If you shoot about 2-3 inches under the spine it is possible to shoot thru the loins and not get into vitals. On a large deer it is at the most 3-4"s but uit can be done. Shawn

[Guru]

Gotta disagree bud......there is no meat under the spine inside the chest cavity....

[ChuckC]

Been there. done that.  Left a nice X on her side from 10 yards.  Know what i saw.  Don't know for certain what actually happened.

The lungs don't have to fill the whole chest cavity to work as stated.
ChuckC

[Dave Bowers]

Here is some information that I found on another website about the misconception of a "Void" area in deer. It was originally written by Dr. Tom Gross, a pulmonologist (Lung Dr) and avid archer from Iowa.

 

"As a disclaimer, I am not privy to what others have seen or witnessed. I am only trained in normal mammalian anatomy. As such, I offer the following:

1) The lungs are not "glued" to the chest wall. That said, they are mechanically linked by fluid forces between the chest wall pleural surface and the lung pleural surface. The example I use for my students is to take a zip lock bag, put in a very small amount of fluid to "wet" the surfaces and close the bag squeezing out all the air. Then try to separate one bag surface from the other. Can't be done without ripping the bag or putting air into the system. During normal respiration, the chest wall expands a small amount and the lung expand to remain constantly in contact no matter how fast or sharply you breath in. The diaphragm moves up and down a good deal as well, but again, the lungs are in continual contact with the diaphragm. The lungs never separate from chest wall - pleural space is a "potential space" until disease causes fluid to accumulate (effusion), bleeding (hemothorax), or chest wall puncture or lung rupture (pneumothorax). There is no anatomic pr physiologic void.

2) the lungs of all large mammals have recesses that reach above the horizontal lowermost reach of the spinal column. I will gladly attach computer tomographic images (CT scan) from man, pig, sheep to demonstrate that you can not design a path that goes under the spine that will not puncture at least one lung (assuming we are talking about the chest cavity). Someone needs to tell me how to do this with a Mac - or I can email them to someone to do it for us.

3) Not all pneumothoraces are lethal. Even bilateral lung puncture can be survived if there is not a large "sucking chest wound" and/or the lung slices quickly seal up with blood clot. Most of these animals will die, but a few can travel a long way even with "double lung" hits if only the tops of the lungs are sliced.

So, there is no void except in the beliefs of some; you can hit an animal below the spine and not recover it. "

Dr. Gross goes on to say,

"one common misconception is that a pneumothorax (collapsed lung) is an all or nothing phenomena. This is not true. Now certainly with a big open chest wound, most certainly the lung will collapse completely, but this still happens on a breath by breath basis (breath in creates negative pressure drawing air through open wound) and can take many minutes (= many yards if running). Also, if chest wound seals up (narrow slit, fat, clot, etc), lung may only leak a little air during expiration (positive pressure in lung to get breath out) and only partially collapse. Humans and deer have two separate pleural cavities (one for each lung), so dropping one lung leaves the other relatively unscathed. The bison has a single pleural space and was relatively "easy" to kill with even a one lung shot. That said, I have heard that an arrow to the chest of a bison may still take large fractions of any hour to put it down.

In addition, remember your fluid dynamics and air flow resistance factors. A deer trachea (windpipe) provides a much bigger cross sectional area than most any broad head wound (area of circle vs intersecting slits). Thus, air will still follow path of least resistance and animal will be able to inspire until pressure in pleural space impedes air entry through normal channels. This scenario also presumes a "sucking" chest wound whereby entrained air through wound on inspiration does not escape on expiration (think ball valve). Very deadly. However, a true open pneumothorax (air in and out wound during respiratory cycle) can be tolerated for a very long time (ask many of our young men getting shrapnel wounds overseas or any trauma center doc)

The bottom line on one lung hits is that they are very survivable if no major pulmonary artery is cut. Think of the lung arteries as roots of a tree. They start out pretty big as the main artery comes out of the heart, then branch repeatedly until down to the size of capillaries ((10 microns diameter). If you center punch the root (hilum) of the lung, you have cut an artery only a bit smaller than the aorta. Although at considerably lower pressure than the aorta, the pulmonary artery to each lung receives 50% of the cardiac output. No other organ can boast this fraction of total blood flow. This is the major reason a double lung hit is so deadly. Combine the blood loss with large volume pneumothorax and the animal may just fall over after a couple of steps. However,most times I suspect they bleed to death before they asphyxiate. Now if you do not cut a big artery, the bleeding may stop, the lung may only partially collapse, and the animal will be able to travel a long way (or may survive). Much more similar to a gut shot, yet in my experience these guys do not lay down. I suspect many are lost at great distance. Those that live must not get infected and must endure the pain and athlectic disadvantage of a pneumothorax. For those of you who have had a spontaneous pneumo, you know about the pain and shortness of breath. This would be fascinating, albeit ethically difficult research. "


Great info from Dr. Gross, hope it helps people understand the lethality (or lack there of) of certain shots.

Dave

[Bonebuster]

I should have given an exact shot location in my first post.

The hit was about two inches behind the elbow and high. It looked as if the hit would have been IN the spine.

The deer was a perfectly healthy six point, that is 1.5 yrs old.(No two yr molar) Dressed 105 lbs on my scale.

[pdk25]

I think there is a void, but you have to be extremely unlucky to find it.

[Ontario Longbow]

I like to use this pic to display what people mistake as a "Void' area,,Hope it helps,,Frank

 

[hit or miss]

The Dr. Gross information is probably the best info I have seen on this subject.

I'd just call it bad luck to lose an animal to a high hit.

Kind of makes a better case for 3 or 4 blade heads, doesn't it.  Bigger hole lets more air into the chest cavity.  Hmmm.  Oh no! It's the old "penetration vs. hole size" argument again.

Scott

[Sharpster]

Originally posted by Bonebuster:
He said, that before he shot, the deer just didn`t look right, and was actually paying no attention to me. I think he was having difficulty breathing, and would have died eventually.

The deer was behaving like this before the chest shot or before the neck shot?

I lean towards Shawn Leonard's explination that the broadhead must not in fact, be passing below the spine, even though the shot may have looked like it did.

I can't question the knowledge and experience of trained medical personel, when they say "impossible". Yet my life experience and Bonebuster's initial post implies that it is "possible".

Here's a question: What if it was a dull broadhead? Could that account for the "bruised" (but not puntured) lungs?...

Ron

[Sharpster]

Ontario Long bow,

That piture Shows that there is an awefull lot of room above the spine.....

Ron

[vermonster13]

Sure is a lot of room above the spine. Most bag and 3D targets are inaccurate of their depiction of a deer's vitals and guys come accustomed to thinking that is how they are set-up.

[pdk25]

Gotta agree with others.  It may not be a void, but there is plenty of room above the lungs and the top of the deer.  Still have to be pretty unlucky.

[draco]

V13, show the picture you have posted before. It shows it perfectly. No void.

[Danny Roberts]

Whatever you want to call "That" spot, I hit it, the deer went 800 yards, bed down for the night and was gone the next morning.