heavy bone threshold 650 gr, what about deer?

[Lt. Dan]

Just read Dr. Ashby's report.  Pretty cool stuff.  My understanding is the 650 was for heavy bone from big game.  What about if you hit a rib on a deer on a broadside shot?  How much arrow to ensure getting through?  I have no doubt my 42# would get a pass through with an arrow that's up to Dr. Ashby's standards.  But what if I catch a rib on a deer?

[Matabele]

The way I understand it 650gr should be seen as a general rule not an absolute figure, you could probably get away with a few less grains on smaller game on bone hits and get complete penetration...assuming all other factors Dr Ashby has reported are met. Also as you know there is a big difference between the momentum required to breach a rib and a shoulder bone, a heavy arrow comes into its own here.

Personally I treat 650gr as a minimum on everything I hunt, to be sure I have a good chance of breaching heavy bone.

Good hunting!

[killinstuff]

I wouldn't worry to much about deer ribs, they are not that tough.

[SteveB]

With a 53lb DAS, I put a 420 gr arrow with a 4blade Stinger thru the paddle bone, a rib, lungs, rib and broke the offside leg of a 2 1/2 year doe a week ago.

Deer are not armour plated - not a lot of vitals on the other side of the shoulder knuckle either. I'll take the trajectory of my set up any day - helps me greatly avoid the dreaded "bad hit"

Steve

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

I agree with Steve. The only time I use arrows that heavy is when I'm bowfishing, and in that case they're about 1,500 grains. Honestly, if a deer rib stops your arrow, you've got a serious problem somewhere.

[BobW]

I will say that I am beginning to wonder.  I just lost a very large buck that I hit a shoulder on.  The shot was 30 yards, 59#@32" bow, 825g total weight arrow, tipped with a 2-blade Stos (145 double bevel).  Arrow broke off about 2.5" up the shaft in the middle of the walnut footing.  How that didn't blow through, I don't know.  We are speculating a broadhead failure.

Ribs are nothing, and i really believed that nuch of the recent single bevel stuff was overkill, but I am beginning to understand the idea of increasing your odds when something goes wrong.  

[SoNevada Archer]

That sux's Bob!
But as far as arrow weights and penetration...Dr Ashby's tests are on African big-game! Not North American big-game. Deer ribs and even elk ribs don't compare.
With a two blade set-up and an arrow of about 420-500 gains, you should have no problems with your 42# bow, getting an arrow through the vitals on a good side shot, even if you hit a rib.

[Jason Jelinek]

I had a friend who shot at an elk with a 70# compound at 20 yards with a 400 grain arrow.  It hit a rib and he only got a few inches of penetration.  He's a good shot and made a good shot and was really bummed out when they didn't recover it.  He's positive it hit a rib square on.

Jason

[Dave Lay]

Bob,if ya hit the joint, I dont think anything is goin through, Lt. Dan, deer ribs shouldnt be any problem at all, with your set up..

[L82HUNT]

Is there really overkill with a bow?  I have taken more deer with a bow then most and I have lost a couple to.  Yes a 400 grain carbon with a 3 blade has killed a ton of deer.  But why would you not want to use everything we now no about arrows and broadheads?

  To answer the question, yes you will break the rib.  And you might even get two holes.  But not everytime.  Ive released to many arrows on deer for people to try and tell me they always get a complete passthru with there 400 grainer.  Ive shot the light arrows they are NOT as good.

[drewsbow]

I'm shooting 625 gr arrows out of a 42# longbow pulled to 30 1/2  and had pass throughs and yes even hitting ribs . Will it happen everytime I don't know but I like heavy arrows and most of the weight up front.

[Soilarch]

Only thing I really have to contribute is that I agree there's always that "one time" when things don't follow the norm for your setup.

The last deer I shot with my older compound went something like this:

29" draw @ 60#  450gr arrow with a new Muzzy 4-blade

On a perfect broadside shot at 40 yards I hit too far back.  Right on the line where the lungs end.  The deer bolted on a dead-away run.  I could plainly see that I had 3-5" of penetration at best.  All I found was some hair that the broadhead had clipped off.  

To say it ruined my day/week was an understatement. It was the major reason for me to move up to a 70# compound.  My current setup is #74 and 3-blades from a 450gr arrow.


P.S.  I accomplished getting poison ivy that day looking for the deer.  It was 18 degrees out!!!!!


Point is that I was used to getting complete pass-throughs out to 30 yards.  Whatever is "normal" is only "normal"...there will be exceptions to the rule.

[SteveB]

But why would you not want to use everything we now no about arrows and broadheads?
 

Because I feel - for me - going from my 425 gr to 650 would give me a trajectory likely to cause more bad hits then might be solved by their use - if you buy into the current "studies".

It is my belief far more deer are lost to poor hits and poor tuning then to lack of penetration. As was most likely the cause of Jason's friend - a 400gr arrow flying true with a sharp broadhead from a 70# compound (250fps?)is not going to be stopped by an elk rib.

Steve

[Richie Nell]

"It is my belief far more deer are lost to poor hits and poor tuning then to lack of penetration. As was most likely the cause of Jason's friend - a 400gr arrow flying true with a sharp broadhead from a 70# compound (250fps?)is not going to be stopped by an elk rib."

Steve

That is precisely the whole point of Ashby's research.  A heavy arrow setup, which you love to not use, will make the "poor hits" not so poor anymore.
Because all hunters are going to make poor shots, like shoulder hits, Ashby proved that a better, heavy arrow setup will have an increase in penetration and a decrease the number of "lost" deer.
It is still amazing how people refuse to agree with his proven research.

Richie

[Richie Nell]

By the way, years ago before I knew any better, my 500 grain arrow tipped with a Zwickey Delta shot from my 73 lb. bow was stopped immediately by a doe shoulder.

[Night Wing]

With my 66" long, 42# take down recurve, at my 30" draw length, my 32" aluminum arrow weighs 550 grains with a three bladed 150 grain Wensel Woodsman on the business end of the arrow. No problems on deer (yet).

[SteveB]

Richie - for me going up more then 200 gr in arrow wght would lead to an increase in poor shot placement due to trajectory. This is a fact for me from both experiance in the field and on 3d. I would much prefer to use a setup that increases my likely hood of a good shot then use one that create poor ones needing penetration help. In other words, I believe use of a Ashby approved heavy arrow setup would lead to me losing more deer.
 
While probably unintentional, your post above is very close to suggesting that those not getting on the Ashby bandwagon are foolish or not responsible hunters. I certainley hope that is not your intent and apologize in advance if I am misreading it.

Steve

[Richie Nell]

Steve,
Your first paragraph suggests your personal preference.....no problem.  
My original response was to clarify that the lost deer you refer to are due to a lack of penetration.  There is a solution to that issue.  And it is not to practice more.  

I do think people are nuts if they continue to deny the proven results of Ashby's research.  

Forgive me if I am wrong but it sounds like you do that everytime this issue comes up.  

Again...using a heavier arrow and bow setup would drastically reduce the number of lost deer.
This is accomplished simply because the heavier arrow is much more likely to penetrate to the vitals whether first hitting soft tissue or bone, unlike a lighter arrow.  

Also, a heavy arrow can be shot as accurately as a light arrow IF the shooter wants to.

[Doc Nock]

What is intriguing to me, and with the late hour, I hope I word this well...is that some of us are comparing "poor arrow flight" against poor penetration...

Question: do we think there is NOT a distinct correlation between poor arrow flight/tuning and penetration?

If an arrow is expending it's energy flip flopping around in paradox, or flying part way down range sideways to straighten out, there is plenty of super high speed video data that PROVES that this results in lost energy/velocity and that equates to lost penetration energy!

All things are related.  Ashby's work on heavy game doens't in any way suggest that it isn't "relevant" to lighter skin/boned game like deer..it simply means that if it works on the heavy critters...its danged sure going to work better on our lighter game such as whitetail...doesn't it?

Is it unethical to NOT use heavy arrows, single bevel tanto tipped heads? Oh heavens no and lets not get that chicken fight started...

It's simply as stated by others...- we can properly tune a bit heavier arrow, and learn it's tragectory (if you shoot either instinctive or gap, you learn a given-weight arrow's flight arc and it gets stuck in your computer tween your ears)we can shoot it well to a variey of ranges.

If a properly tuned, heavier arrow and EFOC with a super sharp head means that we build a margin of error... that equates to less lost deer. That is better PR for us as archers with the legions of armed hunters who follow us into the woods after our earlier seasons. They're out there in numbers hunting small game, turkey and then gun deer! And they find a lot of our mistakes! I've countered for years that if that many folks followed gun hunters into the wood, we'd find a LOT of their mistakes...but that isn't the case, is it?     They follow us!

This past Thursday, my buddy's 16 yr old hit his first buck with a bow... and didn't get a pass through... caught a bit of off side shoulder I guess...from what we could tell... No blood trail.

We found the deer..about 200 yards...but more by a grid search and some providence...

Whatever we can do to elevate the percentage of recoveries and lessen any chance for possible loss, it seems worth a consideration.

Heavy arrows and super sharp broadheads that are very well tuned to milk every ounce of penetration from our bow set up is ONE solid way to increase the odds...when things go wrong... and they do...sooner or later to almost everyone.

As the cowboys out in MT used to say, "If'n ya never got bucked off a horse, ya ain't rode much!"

I'd paraphrase and suggest if you never got a mariginal shot placement... and you shoot at enough critters...you will!

You can opt not to employ ANY of the suggestions... but that is a honest choice, but it doesn't detract from the legitimacy of research based input that helps show what we can do to improve our chances... If...IF something goes awry!

Now help an old man down off a soap box afore I hurt myself...    :rolleyes:        

[SteveB]

I deny it because it is taken by some to suggest it is irresponsible for hunters to not embrace it unquestionly for NA game. Simply not true. For many responsible skilled hunters, flatter trajectory simply means that taking a shot felt as 17 yds that turns out to be 22 meets a higher likely hood of still be in the kill zone - common for anyone especially with quicker shots in the woods.

 

Again...using a heavier arrow and bow setup would drastically reduce the number of lost deer.
This is accomplished simply because the heavier arrow is much more likely to penetrate to the vitals whether first hitting soft tissue or bone, unlike a lighter arrow.  

If I am hitting the soft tissue in route to the vitals, the only added penetration would be in the dirt. If I am hitting bone that can stop my arrow, I'm not near the vitals anyway.
  The doubt I had is removed - your position is clearly that not following Ashby is irresponsible - very judgemental and again, simply not true for NA game.

Steve