Grizzly Broadheads creating arrow weakness?

[Wolf Shield]

Hey gang.  Well I am reflecting on the season and my arrow setup.  Unfortunately, I wounded two mule deer, one in neveda, and one in idaho.

Both were using a 62 # recurve using a beaman classic 340 arrow with brass inserts HIT, 75 grain steal adapters and 150 grizzly broadheads.  Plenty of kitty womp, one would think.

The first was a steep angle (cliff shot) which destroyed the front shoulder, but failed to push through the bone, my tanto tip was not perfected.  Anyway the arrow failed and broke behind the head, which seems to be the weak point of my setup.

Second wound was a poor shot in idaho, 25 yards hit the neck, back of the head of the animal, arrow broke again behind the broadhead on the adapter.  

My concerns are that the grizzly, creates to much mechanical leverage due to the length of the broadheads, further exposing the weak link in my setup.

I believe others have glue a outsert on the first inch behind the broadhead.

Any suggestions would be welcomed.

Wolf Shield

[sendero25]

Wolf,
 Did the steel broadhead adapters break?
There was an issue a few months ago with 75gr steel adapters failing.
Sorry for the bad luck and I am curious because I have some broadheads set up with 75gr steel adapters as well but have been afraid to use them.
Hopefully Dr.Ashby will chime in.
Thanks,
John

[Charlie Lamb]

Apparently to achieve weight the adapters are drilled down the front end.
Very little or no drilling in a 125 grain, a little more in a 100 grain and a lot in a 75 grain.

The hole ends up being clear down to the end of the taper creating a weak spot and that's where they snap off.

I was discussing this very problem with my buddy Chris Kinslow a couple of weeks ago and he pointed it out to me.

Not all adapters are created equal so I'd look for a different brand if that's the weight you have to have for a good tune.

[Doc Nock]

Would these be of any help?

I'm considering moving to these and unitize the insert and BH adapter into one solid unit for strength.

I found them on KKing

 

I think there were ones in 75 gr for smaller ferrules and then 100 and 125 gr. for 11/32

[Wolf Shield]

Charlie,

I am looking at the adapter and it broke right where you are describing the drilling occurred.  Clean break!  I don't have the other adapter, as it is somewhere in a shoulder in nevada.

The other problem that I believe I am experiencing with my arrow setup is that the (HIT) Hidden insert technology, is great for weight but does not reinforce the carbon arrow, between the brass insert and the back of the broadhead.  All the strength is in a weak adapter that seems to bend and splinter my carbon arrow making them worthless, if the weak steal adapter doesn't snap, the adapter bends and seems to splinter my carbon arrows.

In my experience, aluminum shafts with aluminum inserts and steal adapters failed less often with a clean break.  Mostly, I experienced a bend in aluminum arrow behind the insert.

Maybe the 100 glue in adapter for insert and broadhead might show better strength.

Also Charlie, based on your info about the drilling the better alternative would be to purchase the heavier steal adapter and cut 50 grains off the end or smallest part of the tapper to be a short adapter.

Thanks guys for your comments.  Helpful.

Randy

[SlowBowinMO]

Sounds like you've got some of that bad run of 75 grain steel adapters.  Replace those with 100's or the glue in style Doc suggested and you should see a vast improvement.

[O.L. Adcock]

Dr. Ed here. Just borrowing O.L.'s computer for a moment. He saw the thread and asked if I wanted to chime in.

Total integrity of the arrow system is THE most critical part of your arrow setup. When any part of it fails, it doesn't matter what your broadhead is, how sharp it is, or where the hit was placed. It sounds like the biggest problem in this case was the 75 grain steel adaptor.

If you'll search, I had a thread on here about a year ago showing the numerous (or, should I say routine?) failures I was getting with the 75 grain steel adaptors I had ordered from 3 Rivers. I emailed them about the problem several times, but never received any reply from them. I trash-canned the lot of them, and found some much better constructed 75 grain adaptors from Kustom King. I have since switched all my steel adaptors (in all weights) to those from Kustom King. They are built stronger than the others I've tried.

When I get to where I can work with a bit less pain, I'll also be putting together some 'how to' Internal Footing information for carbon shafts. Use of an IF does a great deal to increase shaft durability; but it won't make up for a weak adaptor, insert or broadhead.

I have first appointment with neurosurgeon on the 14th of this month. Can't come soon enough.

Ed Ashby

[Charlie Lamb]

Randy,

I'd take Slowbow's advice. Not sure what the extra 25 grains would do for your tune, but it might not hurt a thing. The 100's would be a lot tougher.

Not sure if they solved the 75 grain problem or not... I use 125's myself.

Lots of guys "foot" their carbons with a short section of aluminum shaft (a couple of inches) that is just the right size to slip over the shaft and epoxied in place.

I don't have any personal experience with that system, but I hear it's bomb proof.

[Wolf Shield]

Guys,

Thank you so much.  Dr. Ashby, I just read your thread from a year ago.  I must have had two or three dozen of these 75 grain adapters fail.  First, it's my own fault for not earlier questioning the failure of these 75 grain adapters.  I thought they were steel, so I just believed them to be the best setup I could of had.  Second, I will contact three rivers and let them know of my concerns as a business.  After learning that they didn't respond to an attempt from Dr. Ashby to modify their 75 grain adapters, that is poor business, and as a customer, makes me not so 100% satisfied.  The only thing I guess that would make me feel better or 100% satisfied is a recall of all 75 grain adapters, so no one else has to experience equipment failure due to penny pinching.

Those 75 grain adapters are still out there waiting to fail.  Can one of the monitors create a thread to get these adapters out of the quivers of other stickmen?

That is the least I can do after wounding two wonderful animals this year.  

Thank you all for your expertise.

Randy Flood

[tradtusker]

Thats really bad luck Randy im sorry to hear about the lost Mulies.

 as mentioned above there is a serious flaw in the 3 rivers 75gr adapters. i had a few break luckily not when hunting and then when Ed brought up the problem i took them out of all my broadheads and binned them. They also have a weakness where they step down just at the thread, i have had even the 125s break there. the Kustom King addapters are MUCH better they do not have any problem with drilling out to far and there is a taper down to the threads.

its disappointing that 3rivers have not sorted out the issuse.

[Wolf Shield]

Gents,

I had a long conversation with a manager at 3 Rivers.  We discussed the 75 gr. adapter at length.  3 Rivers did after the post of Dr. Ashby some time ago, test their 75 gr adapters.  

Their conclusion was that if the adapter was loose and not fully snug against the shaft of the arrow, then they could get the adapters to shear off, but they could not get the adapters to fail if they were snug against the shaft.

I was impressed with 3 Rivers response to my concerns.  Though I did not ask, they sent me the brass 100 grain brass adapters.

I plan to test this setup on a auction for buffalo in South Dakota here within the week.

Thank you all for your comments and contributions to my question.

I think that the 100 gr. brass adapter will prove to be a far better equipment choice.

Randy Flood

[O.L. Adcock]

Randy, "Their conclusion was that if the adapter was loose and not fully snug against the shaft of the arrow, then they could get the adapters to shear off, but they could not get the adapters to fail if they were snug against the shaft."

So how do they explain that Kustom Kings do not?

 I've had adapters fail but I had 75 adapters from both companies and didn't notice or put two and two together...Going back and looking at them and a couple of tests into my cinder block fence confirms they will break whether they are screwed down tight or not. I have bent slightly the ones from Kustom King but no total failures....O.L.

[Daddy Bear]

This is my carbon set-up which seems to have reduced breakage to zero:

 .........WE DON'T ALLOW LINKS TO OTHER SITES.......

Maybe you can find something out of the above to help.

later,
Daddy Bear

[Bill Carlsen]

Whatever bh adapter you end up with I would still strongly recommend that you foot the shaft with a piece of aluminum shaft. I shoot the 340's and have been very impressed with the increased strength it affords. On the 340's I use a 1" piece of a  2018 shaft.

[Rigs]

Wolf Shield,

Wolf Shield wrote...  "The first was a steep angle (cliff shot) which destroyed the front shoulder, but failed to push through the bone, my tanto tip was not perfected. Anyway the arrow failed and broke behind the head, which seems to be the weak point of my setup.

Second wound was a poor shot in idaho, 25 yards hit the neck, back of the head of the animal, arrow broke again behind the broadhead on the adapter."

I would think that better shot placement would help as well...

As hunters, our responsibility is to make sure we tune our gear and take ethical shots.  Maybe there was a weakness behind the head, but you still have to make sure your shot is right.  I have lost animals, but I can honestly say that I've never blamed my set-up.  

I'm not trying to work you over but shot placement is the utmost concern...

Happy hunting,
Jason

[Bow n' errors]

All,
I know from Dr. Ashby's reports that aluminum BH adapters are inferior to the solid, well made steel ones , but is there any data or experience showing that the solid, full length aluminum BH adapters (I think they're about 42 grns.) are too weak or tend to break on typical deer and elk hunting?  If I were hunting something more solid like moose, big bears or the larger ungulates, I'd change my arrow set up to somehow use the steel 125, but my tune works best with the 42grn. aluminums with my bow and 2219's.  Any experience or thoughts on this particular BH adapter?  I also am suspect of the drilled out or short steel and aluminum adapters, but wonder if we're really any worse off with the solid, full length aluminums.  Thanks for any input.
Curt

[Jason Jelinek]

I would agree that shot placement is the key...  if we were shooting at foam 3D targets that don't move whenever they feel like it.  Once the string is loosed, it's all up to chance.  No one is perfect in shooting and animals don't stay still every time.

Wasn't there a thread about Texas whitetails dropping whenever an archer took a shot and having to aim low to get a vital hit?  Does that mean if the deer ducks a little faster or slower than what the archer intended that it was a bad shot placement?

Things happen.  Making a stronger arrow isn't a bad idea.

Jason

[Kingwouldbe]

After reading the Doc's study, I took it to hart and started to cook up some arrows.

These have 125 grain steal inserts on Grizzly 160s footed with 2 inches of 2016. total weight 620grains, with El Grandy's, 650grains

I want to go up another 50-100grains.

 

So sad to hear about your hunts, after working so hard to get a shot, then have equipment failure.

You cant go wrong following Doctor Ashby's work on setting up an arrow that has the utmost integrity.

[SlowBowinMO]

Bow n errors, the Magnus 42 grain long adapters are stronger by far than most aluminum adapters.  They are not bomb proof but generally bend rather than break, which would be better IMO.  I use them quite a bit and still haven't bent one myself, but I know someday I will.  

We have the 75 grain adapters here as well, and while they are identical to the ones with a poor history we've never received a single report of a breakage with them, and we've sold them by the bucket load.  I also personally tried to break one and couldn't do it.  This lead me to suspect there had been a bad lot of the 75 grain adapters.  If we thought they were all defective we'd pull them in a heart beat.  I suggested the 100 grains previously as he needs the utmost in confidence in his set up right now.

[SlowBowinMO]

Here's one of our 75 grain adapters on an older Magnus Journeyman.  As you can see I was unable to break the adapter, the broadhead ferrule actually gave way before the adapter failed.