Do i really need a heavy arrow?....

[Adirondackman]

I don't post alot and try to stay away from some of the more controversal topics but I just don't get the point of shooting light arrows. I guess that what I can infer from some of these suggestions is that if I feel that I can shoot it accurately then that is fine. I can shoot a 22 cal. very accurately out to 50 yards - confident to hit the heart of a deer so I guess that is enough caliber for deer. I know people that have killed deer with a 22 cal. so that must be enough caliber for deer. I don't believe that for one minute and hope that you don't either. I respect the animals that I hunt and use the most efficient bow weight and arrow weight that I can. Why wouldn't you?

[George D. Stout]

Okay, let me make you a little bet.  Take a small diameter carbon or aluminum arrow and front load it to about 388 to 400 grains and put a good cut on contact head on the end.

Then take a 500 grain arrow that isn't front loaded, and a bigger diameter....say 23/64th's cedar.

I will bet that the carbon penetrates as well or better when shot from the same bow, providing both arrows are flying perfectly.

There is a lot more to it than weight alone....just like theres more to a bow's performance than weight alone.  Get some honest testing then we can debate it more intelligently.

And I wouldn't make any assumptions about how much respect anyone else has for the game they hunt....especially some who have been doing it for five decades.

[Adirondackman]

George - I love your posts and really respect your opinions but if you really believe that then why did you say to jump up to 450gr. for moose?

[martin guy]

Umm, because moose are bigger, with bigger,thicker ribs, and a tougher hide?

[Adirondackman]

Martin guy - Thanks for making my point. More weight equals better penetration.

[George D. Stout]

Adirondackman.... Now....I would suggest heavier for moose...because moose have thicker hide, and bigger rib bones...probably three times the thickness of an average whitetail.  The average person hunts deer, with pencil size ribs and less than a foot from side to side.  

I have had my own eyes opened just this year by fooling around with smaller diameter arrows, that are lighter and have more frontal weight, and I would not hesitate to use them with confidence, if I were shooting ten less pounds.

I know fellers who get pass throughs on whitetails regularly with 45 pound bows and 400 grain arrows.  I'm not guessing at it....I've been witness to it.  

I personally shoot arrows that are app. 500 to 520 grains on my 55 pound bow. That is just a little over 9 grains per pound.  The problem with saying this arrow is too light, or that one is too heavy, just flies in the face of historic fact.  There is a line of diminishing returns of course, but we can't make a blanket statement that only a certain level is correct.  

I'll take a perfectly flying 388 grain arrow with a sharp broadhead on a 45 pound bow and have short blood trails.  Have you ever read Jack Howard's testing that he did a few decades ago?  It's quite interesting reading, and if you keep an open mind, eye opening as well.

[Adirondackman]

George - I will consider your argument and close my post with this thought. Grains per pound has never had anything to do with the hunting efficiency of an arrow. It has to do with the efficiency of the bow to launch that arrow.

Example: 8.5 gpp  45lb bow - 383 gr. arrow
                  70lb bow - 595 gr. arrow
From a grains per pound argument your telling me that these 2 arrows will have the same penetration? This is not true. In fact you have to shoot a heavier arrow with a lighter bow to be effective on game.

My argument is to shoot the highest grain arrow that your bow can shoot well, thats all.

[SteveB]

So my use of a 425 gr arrow to take 3 deer means I did not respect them? Or the elk I killed last year with the same setup  :rolleyes:    :(  

Steve

[Ray Hammond]

well I think it's more appropriate to think of it in these terms- I used to put the kids in the back seat of the chevy wagon with a box of crayons and drive 500 miles to granny's for thanksgiving.  

Now we'd have them in carseats a d strapped in- wouldn't dream of doing like we used to!!!

No way I didn't respect my kids- we didn't know any better but we do now.

Shooting the maximum weight possible and achieving perfect flight provides substantial benefits- quieter bow- greater downrange momentum- and enables one to avoid refining his or her setup whenever they chase a differnt critter. Sometimes the hair covered computer (or in my case the bald computer) is very resistant to retraining especially in moments of high stress.

Shooting the most you can comfortably shoot accurately in both bow weight and arrow irrefutably provides advantages over going the other way.

Add to that mix a well sharpened head and you are ready for anything be it Orc or grizzly or whitetail. I want to see my arrow go 20 feet out the other side of a doe so it falls out the other side of a 200 on boar

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by George D. Stout:
I know fellers who get pass throughs on whitetails regularly with 45 pound bows and 400 grain arrows.  I'm not guessing at it....I've been witness to it.  

I grew up around it.

Looking back at the group I started bowhunting with -- friends and family who'd been bowhunting whitetails since the early 50's -- I can't remember anyone using more than 45#, and those were recurves using Dacron strings and shooting aluminum arrows. I also can't remember anyone having problems blowing through deer after deer, year after year.

It worked well for a lot of decades, so why do we think it won't work now, especially with better arrows and faster strings? Trying to re-invent the wheel is fun, but it doesn't change the blacktop on the road.

[Larry247]

My 400-425gr arrows have been killing whitetail deer for a long time from my 44# and my 52# bows.

I wieghed some of my carbons the other day and one dozen was 390gr each. I've had many pass throughs with my set up, one with the 52# bow usring the same arrows right through the shoulder and out the other side.

Heavy arrows are fine too.

[BLACK WOLF]

Originally posted by LATradHunter:
hey gang, im wondering about arrow weight.  Im mostly using easton epic 500's...30" with 155grains up front.  at 7.5gpi thats 225gr of shaft, an 8gr nock, and 155gr broadhead for 388gr total weight. im shootin em out of a 45# recurve at my 28" draw.  is this an adequate hunting weight arrow?  everyone else seems to use 500+ grains.  they bareshaft really well and fly true. any advice? Thanks a million     :D  

It really all boils down to a balance between choices....but for me...the 2 most important factors that have the greatest effect on an arrow's penetrating potential on an animal are "Broadhead Choice and Arrow Tuning" as long as the bow's draw weight and arrow weight are within acceptable or legal weights for the type of animal being hunted.

A basic rule of thumb is to use as heavy a bow as you can comfortably handle under the specific circumstances you will be hunting in and use an arrow that's somewhere around 7g. to 14g./lbs. or so.

Whatever you choose...just make sure your equipment is tuned to the best of your ability and you have a good sharp broadhead on the end of it.

Than it's all up to you to put it where you are suppose to...and even when you don't...a heavy fast arrow isn't going to guareentee a kill.

Whitetail deer aren't armored trucks     It really doesn't take much to penetrate one and kill it.

Ray  

[Ray Hammond]

That's the problem with anecdotal evidence, Jason..too subjective. For every guy you know who didnt have any problem and blew right through deer, some other fella has 15 other fellas who lost a bunch of deer due to no penetration, etc.

I think it comes down to something similar to what was said earlier- you can probably kill a whitetail with a 22 almost every time you shoot one...is it the weapon of choice, though? I don't believe it would be.

If you chase a moose, do you want to do it with a lightweight whitetail setup? I bet not. So then you have to set up your bow differently, learn to shoot it well, go on your trip, come home, set it up for your lightweight setup and relearn shooting it cause deer season is coming.  Too much work for me, and probably a few whitetails and moose are glad we'll go through that rigamarole too!!!

On the other hand, what's so bad about shooting THROUGH a bunch of whitetails by 30 feet and then using the same setup to guarantee the moose gets two holes in him as well? Nothing, in my book.

[Pointer]

LA you didn't say what you were hunting so I assume it's deer. Your setup is fine...and I'm not talking about arrow weight (which is fine btw) I'm talking about your arrows flying true. There is nothing more important than that. If you are accurate in your shooting, you are fine. My dad never used more than a 40lb recurve and had no problems shooting through deer for decades. Yes, I'd use more weight and more arrow for moose but for deer there's no need.

[LATradHunter]

thanks guys...ive decided to either try some 100gr brass inserts for my carbons or go with some 2016 aluminums for deer.  Ill keep my lighter arrows for small stuff... truth be told most of the time when i decide to go "Deer" hunting i end up stalking rabbits, which is a blast for me. I've always had a tendency to like small game hunting more than the big stuff.    Theyre plentiful...and tasty  

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
 That's the problem with anecdotal evidence, Jason..too subjective. For every guy you know who didnt have any problem and blew right through deer, some other fella has 15 other fellas who lost a bunch of deer due to no penetration, etc.

I suppose so, but in 20+ years of bowhunting I can honestly say I've never known a single person who's lost a deer due to lack of penetration. Shot placement? Yes. Penetration? No.

For decades, sub-50-pound stickbows were the norm for bowhunters pursuing whitetails. Literature and production numbers bear that out. That's more than anecdotal. That's history. A lot of bowhunters today seem to have forgotten that.

 

I think it comes down to something similar to what was said earlier- you can probably kill a whitetail with a 22 almost every time you shoot one...is it the weapon of choice, though? I don't believe it would be.

Comparing 45# recurves to .22 rifles isn't exactly an apples-to-apples analogy. I don't recall ever hearing a time when .22's were the norm for whitetail hunters. Now .30-30's are a different story, and despite a hundred or so years of evidence to the contrary, there are some people today who don't think they're adequate for whitetails. So I suppose bowhunters aren't alone in forgetting their past.

 

If you chase a moose, do you want to do it with a lightweight whitetail setup? I bet not.

Ironically enough, I blew completely through my bull moose with a setup I've read here and elsewhere is supposedly inadequate for whitetails.      

 

On the other hand, what's so bad about shooting THROUGH a bunch of whitetails by 30 feet and then using the same setup to guarantee the moose gets two holes in him as well? Nothing, in my book.

Absolutely nothing. But that's quite different than saying people shouldn't hunt whitetail unless their equipment is capable of blowing through a moose.

[LazerRay]

A heavy arrow is function of silence and lethality is part of silence

[heydeerman]

If your hunting set up will pass thru a ripe watermelon it will pass thru a deer.

[Eric in FLA]

This is the sort of informed debate that allows us to consider alternate viewpoints, weigh facts and make informed decisions. For me, this is a thought provoking exchange.

Like many of you, I have successfully harvested whitetails with arrows that ranged from 8 to 14 gr/lb of draw weight. Each of those arrows achieved complete pass through. 540 gr aluminums to 800 gr hickory arrows.

I do not have the history in traditional archery that many of you do, nor have I shared camp with some of the pioneers of the sport. Does anyone know what the pioneers used? My guess is that we may see the same range of opinions in their selections as we see here. What was Fred Bear's set-up? What did Paul Schafer shoot from those 80+ lb bows he shot?

[non-typical]

If it ain't broke it don't need fixin.