DR ASHBY ON LOW POUNDAGE BOWS ?

[Sharpster]

I hope you guys know I'm just having fun with you by instigating this "spirited debate"   :p  

Here's another question: Does E=mc2 also take into account variables like EFOC or the shaft's paradox recovery time after the string is dropped on either type of bow?

Seems to me that a stiffer arrow will loose less energy to paradox than a weaker spined arrow would. So, the stiffer shaft would utilize a greater percentage of the bows energy?

Again, just like to instigate but, half serious about these variables, particularly the EFOC. I see no provision for EFOC in the equation E=mc2... and what about carlr2s point about smaller shaft diameters? lots of variables here. O.L...?

Ron

[O.L. Adcock]

Ron, "Seems to me that a stiffer arrow will loose less energy to paradox than a weaker spined arrow would. So, the stiffer shaft would utilize a greater percentage of the bows energy?"

Nope...Don't work that way. The only time spine plays a roll is when it causes contact with the bow. And that's usually the stiffer arrow that loses energy, not the weak one..Poor tuning will cause rapid energy loss, but that happens after it leaves the bow. Stirring the pot is good! At least it's well thought out and constructive, unlike others!    

Yep, lots of variables, some are obvious, some aren't so....O.L.

[trashwood]

hmmmm well it will be interesting but ah... ah.... how exactly does penetration on a buffalo equate to penetartion of  100# Texas whitetail?  Texas whitetail has about 5 or 6 inches of chest width at the heart.  

So far their ain't been no 80# pigs in Texas (that is the size I hunt for....fits as a unit in my smoker    ) that have lived over been shot by my 45# recurve......so don't understand why the penetgartion on a buffalo is going to change what I am doing ????     Interesting though.....and I am glade I was not the guy standing there with a 43# bow about to shoot at a water buffalo.  Now that guy would need some professional mental health help  IMO LOL

rusty

[Apex Predator]

Yeah Ron, is this Santa Claus' bow?

[Apex Predator]

The tests will give a lot of folks confidence in hunting with lighter poundage.  Many are limited to the 38-40# range due to physical limitations, or simply the fact that they shoot that weight muuuucccch better.  By going EFOC, they can sometimes double their penetration potential on deer size game.  I can certainly see the value in it.

[RonD]

What is being discussed here is important to me as low draw weight and short draw length shooter. At the present time I am shooting between 42# and 43# at 25" and want to get the best performance I can from the bow (recurve - 60", 46#@26")and get the best penetration I can in the hunting situation. Sometime back I lost all interest in deer hunting and acquired an interest in hog hunting because they are plentiful here in Mississippi. However, I hesitate to hunt hogs because of my concern with being able to kill them with my current bow that has such a low draw weight and short draw length. I chose the recurve because I thought and had read that the recurve would give me better performance than a longbow at my draw weight and draw length. I got into bowhunting because I like to hunt and wanted to have the most enjoyable experience doing so. However, all the technical and ethical issues that drive this sport is destroying the fun for me and making it more complicated than I want. However, in the hunting situation I want to get as clean a kill on the animal that I can and refrain from just shooting an animal under the guise of fun. I literally want to get the best from the bow I have and that means being more knowledgeable than I am about the matters of KE, penetration, and EFOC. But it seems that so much of the technical material is more a matter of opinion than fact and this person contradicts that person and in the end it makes it very difficult to know what to do. Even tuning the bow becomes tecnically confusing. At the present time, my concern with this issue is so great that I have decided not to hunt and just limit my shooting to the backyard (having fun and not worrying about getting a kill). Until I can find answers for myself to these issues I think I will limit myself to the backyard and let people with the heavier draw weights and longer draw lengths do the hunting and harvesting.

[Sharpster]

Apex,

(and everyone else looking for the "super stickbow")...

I was intensionally exaggerating. There are recurves and long bows that get 180 fps or faster but, they'er obviously not 45lb draw shooting 13.3 grains per lb.

(And are the wheelie bow hunteres really shooting only 5 grains per pound now? Geese, I hope not)!

I'm one of the guys that have to shoot a low poundage bow because of physical problems and was just trying to point out that as O.L stated:

" the compound folks have a lot of false perceptions. They "think" they are optimizing KE with "fast/light" arrows. Truth is ALL bows work the same".


RonD, I don't have any experience with large hogs but there are plenty of people here who do. Before you decide one way or another if your bow/arrow/broadhead combination is up to the task, I'd encourage you to ask for some real life info from people who have real life experience with the brutes. Theory is fun to explore but don't let it be your deciding factor. Your set-up may well be adequate. How big are the hogs in your area?

Anyone have experience hunting hogs with lighter draw weight bows?

Ron

[trashwood]

RonD - don't limit your hunting, limit the size game.  I promise if you hit a 80 pound pig in the heart with your rig it will be in the BBQ.  for eactly the concerns you discuss I went to stringwalking a long time ago.  I aim for the spot and hit the spot.  

over the years I have proven to myself that hitting the spot with a sharp BH and well tuned kit will bring down the things I hunt with a 40# bow.  Of course I have hunted mostly in Texas.  I would not be interested in tring Africa out with a 40# bow but that leaves a lot of huning  all things considered accuracy trumps penetration if you know your game and are cool in the stand   .  BUT I have never felt I was giving up peneatration with the rigs since the small diameter carbons have come along.  i was amazed at the penetration I got with those old Beman Hunter 40/60 outsert arrows.  I thought I had found a ray gun

rusty

[O.L. Adcock]

Rusty, "how exactly does penetration on a buffalo equate to penetartion of 100# Texas whitetail?"

Yep, that's all well and good when you are shooting more then required you can intentionally (or unknowingly) make poor choices and still be successful. Do you know any ladies, kids, or those with physical issues and can't accurtately shoot 40+ pounds?? Would 25 or 30# work?...You bet IF and only if they make good choices on arrow weight, broadhead style, ect...That is how penetration on buffalo equates, what works there works with anything. Those that follow Doc Ashby's lead can ethicly hunt much larger game with bows they can shoot accurately more so then folks shooting a lot more weight and ignoring it. ..So unless someone has something against those without heman physical abilities hunting, I can't see any other reason for the negitive comments?....O.L.

[O.L. Adcock]

RonD, "that means being more knowledgeable than I am about the matters of KE, penetration, and EFOC. But it seems that so much of the technical material is more a matter of opinion than fact and this person contradicts that person and in the end it makes it very difficult to know what to do. Even tuning the bow becomes tecnically confusing. At the present time, my concern with this issue is so great that I have decided not to hunt and just limit my shooting to the backyard (having fun and not worrying about getting a kill)."

Yes sir, that's an issue for sure...A person can look at Ed's data and "see" what differences broadheads, heavier arrows, skinnier arrows, and higher FOC's makes...Those same principles are going to work no matter if we're talking buffs with an 80# low performance bow or a 30# high performance on deer or pigs. When it comes to who to listen to....Resumes help!     Lots of experience over many years isn't a good resume when they are closed minded and have only done things the same way for no other reason then to follow the crowd....

Somewhere I've got a photo of a young boy with his first rabbit kill. His dad got a hold of me and the boy is a drawf but loved going hunting with his dad. Problem was the little bow just didn't have the horsepower to do the job even on rabbits with the light POC arrows they are trying to shoot. I made him some 1/4" diameter hickory shafts with little tiny broadheads. Soon after I got back the hero photos with his first rabbit. That was a true trophy. The same ideas that work on buffs worked as well to the far extreme....O.L.

[Dozer]

If we can get more young children and women into the fold of Trad hunting with Dr. Ashby's research then I say he has done us all a favor that we can't repay.
That being said. I shoot my 55# bow just fine but if Ashby's research indicates that a lower bow can be just as effective, I'm dropping 10#.

I think of it this way. I can kill a squirrel with a 12gauge. I can also kill the same squirrel with a 4-10 and it'll be just as dead. Why carry all that extra gun if it just isn't needed?

[RonD]

Sharpster, the hogs in this region of Mississippi range from 30 to slightly over 200 pounds. These hogs are found on the local NWR, where they have a fairly large population of them and a diminishing number of hunters. I haven't hunted them because I have never felt confident that my setup would do the job and make a clean kill with minimal suffering by the hog. What I am currently shooting is a Marriah Thermal T/D recurve, 60" in length, 42-43# at 25". I shoot B50 strings of my own making and use wool for string silencers and have a brace height of about 6 5/8". I think (not positive) the low brace height gives me better string follow on the release and in turn transfers more energy to the arrow. As far a arrows are concerned I shoot a 1716 Gamegetter II shaft cut to 26 1/2", 4" parabolic feathers (left wing - right hand shooter)with a 135 to 145 gr. two blade Magnus broadhead. I have shot 1916 XX75 Easton shafts with the same feather setup but use only 100 grain broadheads and they seem to shoot well from my bow. I limit my shots to 15 yards or less. I figured that if I were to hunt hogs at the NWR that I would have to limit the size of the hog to somewhere between 50 and 75#. We don't have a local bow shop that serves traditional hunters and the one shop here has a limited inventory of anything dealing with archery. Without these services it is difficlt to find the equipment to measure and weigh all of the essential features when it comes to arrows, arrow weights, broadhead weight, and total weight of arrow when fully decked out.
When I come to sites such as Tradgang I look for bits and pieces of information that I can experiment with and workout the dynamics that work well for me. I have learned a great deal from readinig posts here and from different how-to articles posted on this site. Any help you good people offer I accept with gratitude. So let me say at this point "thank you."

[O.L. Adcock]

RonD, Kudos to you for being concerned and trying to do your best. Those that shoot more weight then they need and or draw much further then some, make it sounds as if it's not a big deal, too much effort, or whatever. Fact is we all screw up occasionally no matter what we are shooting. Those that down play trying to optimize our equipment, not a one of them ever screwed up a shot and said "danm, wish I'd gotten 10% less penetration!" Keep digging, keep experimenting, take "common wisdom" with a big grain of salt...Things that "work" for others tells us nothing more then it "worked"...Once at least....That's a far cry and could be totally opposite from what works best.

A few facts...

Better tuning out performs poor tuning...

Sharp out penetrates dull....

Broadheads with less cutting diameter and high mechanical advantage out penetrate wider and shorter...

Heavy out penetrates light...

Skinny out penetrates fat.....

High FOC out penetrates low.....

Single bevel out performs double when bone is encountered....

Broadhead and arrow integrity is a must...


Those remain true no matter the shot placement.....O.L.

[Sharpster]

RonD,

I'm not a bow/arrow tuning expert by any means, my specialty is sharpening stuff. That's why I suggested you ask people with real life experience, and like O.L. said not guys who "shot a hog one time and...bla, bla bla". You need to talk to people who have a lot of experience hunting hogs with various trad equipment.

Ray Hammond comes to mind first but, I'm sure there are others too. Ray has run a "traditional only" hog guiding service in GA. for years. I'm sure Ray has seen many hogs of all sizes shot with bows of vastly different draw weights and could speak with a level of first hand experience and expertise that few others could match.

You're right, hunting should be fun! My gut feeling is that you most certainly could cleanly kill hogs of 150 lbs or less with your setup. You may need to be picky about your shots but that comes with any hunting. We all need to be picky for one reason or the other no matter what we're shooting.

Ron

[LATradHunter]

i think im going to order a 95# black widow and make a batch of 1500gr arrows just in case i run into a wooly mammoth while deer hunting   .  Just kidding...this is a very interesting thread    ... has anyone had success with the new Eclipse single bevel broadheads?

[BLACK WOLF]

Originally posted by O.L. Adcock:
A few facts...

Better tuning out performs poor tuning...

Sharp out penetrates dull....

Broadheads with less cutting diameter and high mechanical advantage out penetrate wider and shorter...

Heavy out penetrates light...

Skinny out penetrates fat.....

High FOC out penetrates low.....

Single bevel out performs double when bone is encountered....

Broadhead and arrow integrity is a must...


Those remain true no matter the shot placement.....O.L.

I love the fact that someone else said that besides me    

I totally support what you just said, O.L.  

I would also add...fast out penetrates slow..when everything else is considered equal.

Ray  

[RonD]

What is the formula for calculating the FOC?

[SuperK]

It is very important to "cover all the bases" when trying to obtain max penetration when dealing with lower poundage bows.  Just yesterday I was reminded of that lesson.  My buddy killed a nice buck with the rifle.  Just before skinning him I grabbed my bow (a 50 lb. Super Kodiak with B-50 string..however I only draw 44 to 45 lbs) a poplar arrow (11/32 with a weight of 520 grains,3- 5 inch left wing feathers) with a sharp Zwickey No Mercy left hand bevel broadhead.  FOC was about 12%.  With the buck hanging up from his rear legs, I shot him where the shoulder blade meets the leg bone.  The distance was about 12 feet.  There was a sharp "crack" sound when the arrow hit.  The arrow did not break or fail.  The broadhead did not penetrate the bone.  There was no bone splits.  I was able to remove the broadhead by "working" the arrow up and down, and side to side.  The broadhead did not bend.  I don't doubt for a second that if I hit a deer that size in the same place with the same setup that I would not have caused a fatal wound. The same bow and arrows with Woodsman and Bear broadheads have given me complete passthrus and very dead deer.  Hits were behind the shoulder though.  The point of all this?  Just using a single bevel broadhead is not by itself going to make that much of a difference if you ignore the other factors that are required.  Its either a "all or nothing" approach.  Just an observation.

[O.L. Adcock]

Ray, I appreciate that...."I would also add...fast out penetrates slow..when everything else is considered equal."

This notion is what gets folks in trouble thinking about this stuff...This is NOT true...Any projectile as you increase it's velocity, the rate it bleeds off energy goes up by the square of that velocity..Our bows are fixed energy...They are full throttle every shot. The only way we can increase velocity is with lighter arrows...We increased the rate energy is used but we have the same energy as before..The faster we try to do work with a given amount of energy, the less overall work it can do.

SuperK, "The point of all this? Just using a single bevel broadhead is not by itself going to make that much of a difference if you ignore the other factors that are required. Its either a "all or nothing" approach. Just an observation."

Your right, do well on one thing then ignore others and you've gained nothing, especially the broadhead. You didn't say what BH you were using and that is very thick bone at that spot. Did you read the article in TBM a few months ago Dr. Ed wrote on beveled heads? Right behind that article another fellow was doing the exact same test you did with a 40ish pound selfbow...Multiple complete bone splits and pass throughs. I would think your bow has more horsepower...Another thing to consider, the tuning part...If a person has some tuning issues, the closer you are to the game the more it'll hurt penetration. The FOC part is a BIGGY...With you only being at 12% didn't help you. There is a big jump when you cross over 20%. So don't dismiss the Doc's suggestions without duplicating the major ones like FOC....O.L.

[TomMcDonald]

Originally posted by O.L. Adcock:
Ray, I appreciate that...."I would also add...fast out penetrates slow..when everything else is considered equal."

This notion is what gets folks in trouble thinking about this stuff...This is NOT true...Any projectile as you increase it's velocity, the rate it bleeds off energy goes up by the square of that velocity..Our bows are fixed energy...They are full throttle every shot. The only way we can increase velocity is with lighter arrows...We increased the rate energy is used but we have the same energy as before..The faster we try to do work with a given amount of energy, the less overall work it can do.

SuperK, "The point of all this? Just using a single bevel broadhead is not by itself going to make that much of a difference if you ignore the other factors that are required. Its either a "all or nothing" approach. Just an observation."

Your right, do well on one thing then ignore others and you've gained nothing, especially the broadhead. You didn't say what BH you were using and that is very thick bone at that spot. Did you read the article in TBM a few months ago Dr. Ed wrote on beveled heads? Right behind that article another fellow was doing the exact same test you did with a 40ish pound selfbow...Multiple complete bone splits and pass throughs. I would think your bow has more horsepower...Another thing to consider, the tuning part...If a person has some tuning issues, the closer you are to the game the more it'll hurt penetration. The FOC part is a BIGGY...With you only being at 12% didn't help you. There is a big jump when you cross over 20%. So don't dismiss the Doc's suggestions without duplicating the major ones like FOC....O.L.

All things being equal. I took that as this:
The same arrow (same weight, same tip weight, etc...) shot from a 40lb bow and then from a 50lb bow (of the same performance in their respective weights).
The faster the arrow is travelling the more it will penetrate (a hit on the same spot with the same sharpness in the blade).
Is this what you were getting at Ray?