Exit Holes .. bloodtrails. . penetration?

[wingnut]

After reading a few threads about shot selection and thread bare bloodtrails, I thought I'd ask the question about selecting the shot to produce an exit hole.

We all look at shots as to where they enter.  Heck we burn a hole in that spot.  But do we see where it will exit and if it will produce the trail we need?  

From a treestand the shots are down hill and produce a wound path from up on the near side to down on the far.  If the arrow doesn't produce the exit, the chest cavity will retain the blood until it reaches the entry hole.  Sometimes this never happens and we end up following nothing and hope to find the animal.

I had a hunting partner that liked to hunt elk from a treestand.  He shot two huge bulls each at 8 yds from the tree.  Both were hit mortally and neither left a blood trail.  The reason was no exit wound because of poor penetration.

We have touted a broadside shot and a 1/4 away shot.  Heck I have promoted 'shoot the far shoulder' for years.  I realized recently that the far shoulder stops the penetration and prevents an exit wound.

Now I have decided to look through the animal and go for high probablility exit shots.

I can't remember ever loosing an animal with two holes, but have tracked quite a few to no end with one.

What do you think?

Mike

[Whip]

You make a great point Mike.  That is one of the reasons that I think broadside is the best shot angle.  Other than ribs there is nothing else to inhibit penetration and the width of the body cavity is at its minimum with a broadside shot.  In other words, the broadhead has to travel through less of the body before it is sticking out the other side.  Worst case of course is a shot at a deer facing away or sharply quartering.  (Won't even discuss frontal shots)  In those cases the arrow has to pass through an aweful lot before finding air on the other side.

I still take quartering away, but do sure prefer broadside.

[kbaknife]

I think nothing is more deadly than a double lung shot with an exit hole.
Right straight thru the side.
Not only a blood trail - but TWO blood trails that normally don't last more than 50 yards.

[Biggie Hoffman]

I agree with you both. Broadside is best for pass-thru penetration and gives you the best opportunity at both lungs.
Lots of angles will kill 'em, but if you don't find them, you should feel like ****.

[O.L. Adcock]

Mike, good observations and question. Would 2 holes in the wrong or less optimum spot be better then 1 in the best spot? I've seen elk hit as you say with no pass through calmly walk 30 yards and keel over. I've taken deer hard quartering with entries in back of ribs/gut and exit in front of opposite shoulder that left little to no blood trail and the animal travel 150 yards. Lots of variables....I do think folks take too many shot angles they shouldn't, especially on elk. Quartering away reduces the odds of pass throughs...Tree stand angles reduce the odds of pass throughs. Add those to possibly less then optimum tune, broadhead selection, light/low performing bows, our goof ups...and trouble shows itself.   ....O.L.

[longbowman]

This is another reason I believe in heavy bows and heavy arrows.  I shot my deer at 15 yds. this year broadside but right at impact it jerked it's far shoulder back and I ended up cutting off the top of the knuckle bone before exiting.  I was using a 70# Bear T.D. with cedars and 200 gr. Ace heads.  Even when things look good at realease there's a ton of stuff that can happen before actual impact.  Your point is a good one because we should really be concentrating on the exit spot when we're shooting just like you said.

[Morning Star]

Agreed, whatever you have to do to make two holes a high probability.  Might be shot selection or changing your setup to a heavier lbs and/or heavier arrow.

I shoot a very heavy slim carbon arrow, very rarely I have an arrow that doesn't make two holes.  Given that, I worry less about shot placement.

[Shaun]

Yes. Broadside, ground level, two holes is ideal.

I like the idea of visualizing the exit point and not aiming for the opposite shoulder, maybe just behind it for broadside or in front of it for quartering away. On deer the lung area is large and just behind the shoulder exit would work on slight quartering away, not on hogs a with smaller boiler room.

Good arrow flight is very important and most overlooked. It is hard to describe good arrow flight, but I know it when I see it.

I have been having good luck with 55+ lbs and big Ace this season - and good arrow flight.

[Sharpster]

Excellent topic Mike.    

I agree with all of the above... As hunters we're not just concerned with killing, we need to recover the animals that we shoot. Most of us would prefer to miss cleanly than kill an animal but not be able to recover it.

The moment that we find our quarry dead is the emotional high point of any hunt and one of the highest "highs" that we can ever experience... Unlike the moment we realise that we have wounded or killed an animal but have lost it for good, which is the lowest of "lows".

Shot placement, shot selection, and pass through penetration all play critical roles in determining the outcome.

I have come to the point where I only take broadside or very slightly quartering shots because the heart is too small of a target and because we need to take BOTH lungs AND have an exit hole in order to limit the distance that an animal is capable of traveling after the shot, and to ensure that there is a lot of blood to follow.

The other critically important aspect of recovery and heavy blood trails is the importance of an extremely sharp broadhead... no matter how many blades it may have. Even though I'm a devout two blade guy, I'll take a razor sharp three or four blade head over an "iffy sharp" two blade every time, and vice versa.

I read somewhere that a double lung hit animal can only live for 90 seconds. Well, on a dead run they can sure cover alot of ground in that time! Even animals hit perfectly can be lost if there's not enough blood to follow them.

So for me...

Broadside double lung hit + sharp broadhead + full penetration = Steak and eggs.

Ron

[Daddy Bear]

This topic seems to come up and then fade away in cycles covering decades:)

Harry Elburg has made it known that he prefered to hunt deer while stalking from the ground using a flatbow and a backquiver. He has noted that his all-time favorite shot on a whitetail deer, for reasons of stealth, is: "My favorite shot on deer is from the rear quatering into the front. I aim right behind the last rib and for the far shoulder. That shot also allows you to make your move without the deer seeing you."-Elburg

His quest for an off side exit became the mother of his invention, the Grizzly. This was quite a number of years ago into the last century. During that time Elburg often stressed the importance of an off-side exit, especially for tree stand hunters who required a low exit. "You want your broadhead to go in one side and out the other, especially if you are shooting out of a tree stand. Because if you don't have a bottom exit wound you will often lose game. You really need that blood trail coming out the bottom."-Elburg

Over the years, some may have gone the route of Elburg and selected tackle to increase the odds of an off side exit, some may have gone the route of limiting shots to increase odds that off side bone will not come into play, some have chosen to include both. Regardless the route chosen, I think it is good that the topic was again brought up in this thread, as ALL of us should strive for an exit wound:)

[Kingwouldbe]

Wingnut, Thats some pritty good think'n for a wingnut,LOL.

Most of my kills have been from the ground, a few from a tree, I always want an exit and I get one about 80-90% of the time.

I believe an exit increases your odds of recovery dramatically.

Some would say, they like the arrow to stay in the animal to cut it up while it runs away, I have seen no evidence of this cutting up effect.

The only time I have see this is when the arrow is stuck in a leg and the leg is going back and forth on the broadhead.

I have never seen a set of lungs cut up by a broadhead that was in the chest cavity other than the initial shot ( I believe this is an old wives tell) you can take a knife or broadhead and sandwich the blade in your hand, move it around all you want, you'll never cut your self, until you slide across the blade.

With Doctor Ashby's study and EFOC I have cooked up even better arrows than I had, now I'm looking for 100% passthroughs regardless of what I hit.

Of course I want broadside double lung, but that don't always happen.

[wingnut]

even with a great hit and exit, the animal is going to live and go for 60 seconds or so.  Sometimes you get lucky like OL said and the elk just keeps feeding til it tumps over.  Most times it does a "death run" and covers a much ground as it can til it goes down.  How far can a man run in 60 seconds? 400 yds, 500?  Well think about how far a deer can go.

You need something to follow.

Mike

[Ray Hammond]

I posted this on the thread titled " favorite spots to hit them" on the powwow..11/16/08

The best place to hit game changes with each different view. Aim for where you want the arrow to EXIT the critter. Broadside, as has been said above, is the safest angle.

Lungs are what you aim for- an arrow shot animal only hit in the heart can and often does travel a long way with a blown up heart- typically a lot further than with punctured lungs.

[KSdan]

I also think many do not understand deer anatomy.  The lung/kill zone on a 220# field dressed buck is no bigger than my open hand- 6" x 6".

[Lost Arra]

Question from the less-experienced:

Would a high level treestand (vertical measurement) require a longer shot distance (horizontal measurement) in order to get both lungs and an exit? I guess this is a geometry question: how high on the near lung can you hit and still expect to hit the far lung?

I've always kept my stands low because I didn't feel comfortable shooting at a deer too far from my tree but a high stand would seem to require it. We also don't have a lot of real tall trees around here.  

[wingnut]

In my opinion, very high stands are difficult to maintain a good shot angle from with traditional equipment.  Besides I don't get along with high things well.  I set my stands at 12 ft. in trees that provide good cover and we get lots of oppurtunities.

Mike

[[email protected]]

Well...

I don't even know if I am really qualified to comment.  My experience hardly compares to guys who shoot 5+ deer year in year out.  Here in Oregon its tough to shoot 2 animals a year so we are limited.

I believe the following to be true, your mileage may vary:

A high double lung on an elk results in a dead elk with no blood trail.  Generally good for a mad dash for 70-80 yards.

When an arrow falls out of a critter blood trails ALWAYS greatly decrease in volumn or disappear entirely.  

I have never seen a blood trail improve after the arrow falls out.  Any one had a different experience?

Several years ago my brother shot a bear just before dark and the arrow hit the off shoulder.   After giving him enough time we trailed that bear until three in the morning.  Found him with arrow still in him; opened him up and could clearly see where the Snuffer did in fact do considerable interior damage.  I am convinced that the arrow kept the wound open and the blood flowing allowing us to make the recovery.  

Blood trailing in the dark in that thick cover was LOT more excitement than I wanted.  Talk about the heebie jeebies, I was puckered up for several days!

I called in a bull for a friend who promptly shot him in the liver(complete pass thru) with a two blade head.  I watched the bull jump a fence about 100+ yards away.  I marked the spot very carefully knowing there would be blood on one side or the other.  NO BLOOD on either side.  Went back, found all three pieces of the arrow.  Late that day we found the bull where he bedded down, little to no blood.  I have not used a two blade head since that incident.  I remember thinking how I wished the arrow was still in him.

So, I am not so sure that a complere pass thru is the "be all and end all" that most subscribe to.

Again, your mielage may vary.

Most of my experience is based on elk taken from the ground.

Bob

[wingnut]

Brett,

Heck man most guys say 90 sec. My personal experience and that of Rusty is that most are still alive in 45-50 sec.  I've killed a lot of bear with a bow and some on video.  The death moan is sometimes two minutes after the shot.(no misplacement, no BH failure)  They may only be 50 yds away but it took that long to go out.  I've watched elk doublelunged with a pass through stay up for a couple of minutes before going over.  Most of those didn't go far but were on there feet.


Brett,

We need to come shoot your deer, they die quick.

Mike

[stringstretcher]

I get a lot of flack from guys when I go to a 3d shoot because of this topic.  I have never, never shot in a tournament of just for fun to hit the 8,10,12 ring on a 3-d target.  I always shoot for shot placement, and look real close to the angle of the shot to see just what I would have taken out with the shot.  For the most part, there is not a target out there that a 10-14 ring will give you the best or in some cases even an ethical shot.  Why practice for a perfect score, when in fact you perfect score shooting would only be bad shots on a animal.  Look at the angles on some of your shots.  Perfect 10 ring shots......woulded of very very hard to find animals.

[Bjorn]

I typically end up with arrow on both sides of the animal and few pass thrus. All of my kills are stalking on the ground, and 2 kills in low treestands-6-8 feet off the ground.
It has always seemed to me that it would be difficult to make a double lung shot from a 16+ foot stand if the animal is closer than 50 feet.
The angle is pretty tight.
I'll work for a shot broadside, on the ground and not more than 20 yards.