Exit Holes .. bloodtrails. . penetration?

[wingnut]

Well this is not a debate over what is anatomically possible but rather a discussion over the need and placement of exit wounds.  Sharp broadheads and correct shotplacement are no brainers.  What I am trying to emphasize is that in order to have a high recovery rate you need an exit wound.

Everyone has an animal that just fell over in a few seconds.  That's great!! Heck I've had my share too.  My buddy and I shot two elk out of the same herd and watched them both go down in under 30 seconds each.  Both had exit wounds and were double lungs with collapsed lungs.

That is not the problem.  The question is what are you going to do when you have no exit wound and are 250 yds on a sketchy bloodtrail? Also had this happen and have had professional guide tell me that if they go 200 yds they won't be found.  I told him to "go #$%@ himself" and recovered my animal 200 additional yards with a high double lung hit.  

Mike

[JC]

Originally posted by wingnut:
What I am trying to emphasize is that in order to have a high recovery rate you need an exit wound.

   

[trashwood]

Hmmmm - brain must be hypoxic for around 45 seconds to produce unconsciousness.  Death occurs in white-tailed deer at about  35% loss of their blood volume.  white-tailed deer blood volume is about 8% of their body weight.  a deer's heart is big for their weight at about 0.9% of body weight.  on a mature 120# Texas white-tailed deer with a aorta cut  would take over 1 minute till it was clinical dead.  that is assuming it was clearing all the blood from it's chest cavity.  that doesn't happend that I have ever seen.  

from a physological stand point there is no cause of death in 7 seconds from a bilateral pneumothorax caused by an arrow ?????????


rusty

[wingnut]

Rusty,

Deer are real "shocky".  I think a lot of them just pass out from the shock and die while sleeping.

Mike

[trashwood]

I totally agree with the exit wound.  if cavity is congested with blood it reduces the pressure graditent enough that some blood flow can be maintained for a while even if major vessel cut.

yep that is why we give 20 minutes before we follow up  

good thread.

rusty

[Robert Honaker]

I have never understood the quarteribg away "is the best" shot.
A little to each side and you hit guts/hip or hard shoulder bone.
Shootem broadside....dead even of the lungs....if you miss right or left you still hit liver or lung.

[Sharpster]

Rusty,

Agreed. The number I have most frequently heard for death from bi-lateral pneumothorax is 90 seconds, and again, any animal on a dead run can cover one heck of a distance in that time. If the animal is not pumping out blood the whole time it can still be lost. So it still comes down to a well placed, razor sharp (not moderately sharp) broadhead, coupled with a pass through double lung shot that makes recovery of the animal much more likely.

Brett, I had a similar experience many years ago. Bullseyed the paunch on a nice buck with an insanlely sharp Snuffer. The arrow went through him so fast he didn't know what happened. He jumped and looked around like "what the heck" and then stood perfectly still for forty five minutes before his front legs buckled and he went down. Like your doe, there was an ocean of blood inside the body cavity but not one drop on the ground where he stood for so long. I have absolutely no doubt that if he had run off, I would never have recoverd him.

There's a case of a crazy sharp broadhead getting a full pass through but poor shot placement was the missing factor that could have easily resulted in a dead, but lost deer.

Ron

[[email protected]]

Brett,

I agree (on elk)6-7 seconds and they are down with a double lung.  And yes I think it helps to have two holes too create a faster collapse.

I also think you are right about two blade heads...sometimes they just don't seem to know they have been hit...just stand there and fall over.

With a three blade head that has never been the case for me.  They really burn up the real estate.

But I still prefer the 3 blade head.

Here is Oregon it sometimes rains a little bit and I want to get every drop of blood on the ground just as quickly as I possibly can.

Rusty,

Nice to "see" you.  I have no reason to doubt the scientific data.  I do have to wonder how long they live after they fall down  

Once I shot a smallish four point mule deer right through his heart.  He made it about 40, perhaps 50 yards and was down...maybe 3-4 seconds.  Never had a solid double lunger been on their feet for more than 6-8 seconds.


Bob

[SuperK]

Hey Wingnut, good thread!  Last year I shot two does with a Bear Razorhead with bleederblades.  The first one I hit a little far back and I got the liver. Total passtru. Trailed her approx. 100 to 150 yards.  Great bloodtrail.  When I got to her, the wounds looked like she had been shot with a square shotgun slug.  I was glad I was using a 4 blade broadhead.  Made tracking her a standup job.  Shot another mammy later on with the same set-up.  The arrow didn't make it out the other side.  I hardly found any blood at all.  The only reason I was able to find her in the reedmash was because I "stumbled" up on her.  I like multiblade bhs on marginal hits but if they don't produce an exit wound, ya don't find blood.  Just my experience. Lots more folk on Tradgand with more experience than me seem to be in agreement that what produces a good bloodtrail is what the broadhead cuts (shot placement and sharpness) and if there is an exit wound.  The single bevel broadheads are reported to have superior penetration and make "S" shaped exit wounds which "should" give better bloodtrails that standard double bevel 2 blades broadheads.  Could this be "the best of both worlds"?  Lots of folks think so.  Can't answer that one for myself.  I haven't shot one yet with a single bevel with matching fletching.  Maybe some folks that do have experience with the single bevel bhs. would like to report what they have seen.

[SOS]

I guess one question from the doctors/vet's is how much blood loss or what mechanism drops/puts a deer/animal on the ground versus complete "clinical brain death"?  I'm guessing my lung/heart arrowed deer average 80-90 yards, maybe.  My first buck with longbow last year, strong quartering away shot laced from almost the back of the ribs to in front of the off leg about where the hair turns white.  He was stumbling inside 20 yards and down in 40.  High/back of both lungs on a doe, ran like crazy over 200 yards.  Middle of both lungs on a doe - didn't know she was hit and sauntered down the hill nibbling for 70 or so yards.  Amazing difference -

[trashwood]

yes true, maybe down in 7 seconds but I don't think ya should approach them yet.  I saw a fight between a bowhunter and a 65# doe.  bowhunter was not winning till ran in and hit her with a ax.

rusty

[mmgrode]

Having had my share of good and bad blood trails(defined as lot's of blood and little to no  blood) with both gun and bow and helping others with their trailing I feel I can come to a few conclusions.  
   I think the big issue you are trying to bring up, Mike, is whether an exit wound is neccessarily better for recovering hit game and whether it would be better to take a "less lethal"/"slower acting" shot in hopes of producing a better blood trail to follow up.

 I don't think there is any question that two holes will leak more blood than one and that two holes should be desired.  However, the placement of these two holes is critical in the amount of blood spoor produced in my experience.  

Broadside double-lung complete penetration does not guarantee good blood trails.  Generally speaking, higher holes leak less than lower ones.  This is one advantage to achieving an exit hole when shooting from a treestand...a low exit hole to drain blood from.

Take a ground level broadside shot for instance. Whether it is a high lung shot or low lung makes a difference. Internal bleeding(hemmhoraging) will occur in both of these instances and the life expectancy of the animal would be comparable, yet more spoor will be left for the hunter on the lower shot. I find it more desireable to shoot lower than have an exit hole neccessarily.  

Much of the discussion thus far has dealt with whitetail deer and elk who's vital organs are fairly accessible.  Broadside behind the shoulder shots are efficient means of dispatching them.    However, when we consider game such as hogs and many African species who's vitals are placed further forward in the chest, exit holes are not always expected. In these cases marginal shots taken to ensure exit wounds would be irresponsible, in my opinion.  It would be better to get a broadhead in the vitals with only one entry for the quick death of the animal.  Would you rather risk missing the vitals by aiming a bit further back, or aim right in them whether you get an exit or not?  

Another thing to consider.  Deer blood coagulates awefully quickly clogging holes on not-so-expired animals. This brings to question the role of an arrow staying in the animal vs. complete pass through.  I can tell you from experience that no deer I have seen shot with the arrow still in it has stayed calm.  They take off like a bat outta %$#@!  This most certainly will lengthen trails.  An arrow still in the animal without an exit may be doing some slicing especially when running through brush, etc.  However, consider this: If you get stabbed in the leg with a knife you aren't supposed to pull it out.  If you do, you will bleed much more than if you left it in and got attention at the ER. It could mean life or death. Why is that?  Blood coagulation, natures mechanism to stop cuts from killing us!  The knife is aiding this process by lessening the degree to which the blood will need to coagulate to stop the bleeding.   Now, I understand that deer don't remain still(far from it) till the arrow is taken out, but this removal will result in more external bleeding.  An arrow could be doing the same in both entry and exit wounds if left there.

We as hunters try to minimize the variability by taking "high percentage" shots and using razor-sharp broadhead tipped tuned arrows out of proper bows, yet that variability is still there.  That animal may move, that cut path could swirve in the animal, a rib might be hit.  Frankly, that is part of what makes hunting so much fun...the unexpected.    Good topic Mike!  Matt

[mmgrode]

Originally posted by trashwood:
Hmmmm - brain must be hypoxic for around 45 seconds to produce unconsciousness.  Death occurs in white-tailed deer at about  35% loss of their blood volume.  white-tailed deer blood volume is about 8% of their body weight.  a deer's heart is big for their weight at about 0.9% of body weight.  on a mature 120# Texas white-tailed deer with a aorta cut  would take over 1 minute till it was clinical dead.  that is assuming it was clearing all the blood from it's chest cavity.  that doesn't happend that I have ever seen.  

from a physological stand point there is no cause of death in 7 seconds from a bilateral pneumothorax caused by an arrow ?????????


rusty

On a completely calm deer that didn't know it was hit, this is many times the case...it takes them a bit to die. Their adrenaline isn't up(ie. heart rate not raised).  However, running deer are a different story.   A running deer's heart rate would cause it to go into shock more quickly from the loss of blood as more blood would be pouring into/out of the wound, generally.  Try holding your breath when sitting on a couch, then when running laps;)

[Brian Krebs]

When I lived in Michigan; 'Michigan Bowhunters' did a survey of all deer shot; as to range; and place of the hit.

 Deer that were double lunged seemed to go about 60 yards; heart shot deer went about 180. I don't remember other stats; but I do remember that statistically; the longer the shot was; the longer the blood trail.

 I shot a buck once that was hot on a doe; and even after the heart shot; he ran to the doe; mounted her and fell over dead.

 I have shot deer on several occasions that were hit through the lungs; with zwickey 2 blades that didn't hit any ribs- between; but no cuts on the ribs themselves.

 Me thinks that the hitting of bone causes a shock more than not hitting bone; because I have had deer double lunged with no rib damage; kick their back legs on impact; and then continue to feed ! They fell over dead shortly thereafter; but seemed not to realize anything was wrong until they got dizzy and fell over.

 Bears were timed once; they can cover 40 yards in 2.5 seconds from a standstill - fast enough to catch up to a passing horse and catch it- from a standstill.

 Bears that are double lunged ussually run about 40 yards or less; and that puts them in the less than 3 seconds and drop category.

 Deer seem to have a built in extra kick of adrenaline; and hit bone; and they will run hard and fast.

 I have known people shot in the lung with a bow; and they felt intial shock and pain; but it immediately subsided ( like when I was stabbed with a stilletto in the chest).

 Now an eye socket hit; or leg muscle hit; and people say: after a bit it really hurt.

 I have hit deer - just a nick on the leg; and walked them to where they get a blood or air clot that kills them... but I had to push them constantly ( open country hunting where you can see them with a binocular a long ways off).

 I want a pass through - they do leak blood better; and a good blood trail is always a good thing.

 Over everything is the absolute need for sharp broadheads. Arguing shots without factoring in the sharpness of the head is kinda worthless data. IMHO

[Missouri CK]

Great thread!

Matt brought up a good point that I hadn't applied to bowhunting.  Medical experts always recommend leaving any sharp object in the body rather than pulling it out until you can reach medical attention.  Complete pass through is going to speed up the blood loss for sure.

My albeit limited experience is that when I don't get complete pass through the broadhead is sticking out the other side with the arrow in the middle. That only clogs up the hole and continues to irritate the animal perhaps pushing them on to further distances.  

Complete pass through with a quiet bow usually leads to an animal that just stands around trying to find the source of the danger.  Usually they die within sight.

Double lung shots also give you a lot more room for error.  Heart shots can become leg or brisket shots within a few inches.  Certainly hogs and javi's are a different animal literally and figuratively.  

The treestands issue is a dilemma I struggle with mentally.  Low stands make for easier shots but higher treestand help with wind and with visualization.  When sitting stands that are 12 feet or under I always feel like the deer just look right at me and then I'm busted or they are on alert.  Much more difficult to hit a deer where you intended when they are alerted.  

Great thread and great food for thought.  Thanks for all the input.

Chris

[Rico]

Good point on getting that exit hole,where I hunt a couple of bounds and a whitetail can quickly be out of sight with out a blood trail to follow even a mortaly wounded deer can escape rather easily.

[Stone Knife]

I like the broadside shot or even a slight quartering towards me when in a tree stand, I have found that my arrow will exit easily when I hit the deer with a 10 to 12 yard shot high near the front shoulder and it goes back a ways and out the ribcage, that makes two nice holes and a blood trail that is followed at a fast walk.

[Littlefeather]

Good thread Mike. Very thought inspiring.

I get to track many many animals a year as an outfitter. The biggest problem I see after shot placement is penetration. I am amazed at how little penetration some hunters get. Lots of this is simply because of the "that's good enough" attitude toward broadhead sharpness and arrow flight. Penetration is by far the greatest killing tool we have as archers. Yea, an arrow will kill a deer with only 6" of penetration. Only problem is a very limited blood trail on an animal that is terrified by an arrow sticking out of him hitting everything he passes. Every time that arrow taps on something it sends the animal into a greater panic thus making him run away even faster leaking sparse blood from a hole plugged by an arrow shaft. Bad news!

A complete passthrough generally results in an animal not knowing what has just happened. I've seen many deer circle back around to see what has happened only to find hisself dead from blood loss at the point of impact. Hogs are the exception. Hogs won't return but they will run a short distance, start rooting and feeding calmly, then fall over dead. I try and visualize the best shot placement through the vidals that will result in a passthrough. Exit holes kill quick and clean if put through the goodies! Good hunting! CK

[Sharpster]

Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
I shot a buck once that was hot on a doe; and even after the heart shot; he ran to the doe; mounted her and fell over dead.  

Brian,
Now that's funny right there... Can't think of a better way to go out than that!  

Ron

[Sharpster]

Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
Over everything is the absolute need for sharp broadheads. Arguing shots without factoring in the sharpness of the head is kinda worthless data. IMHO

That is spot on and so important to the heart of this thread. Since we're talking bloodtrails and game recovery, we should probably address the age old question: "Which leaves better blood trails, 2 blade, 3 blade, or multi-blade broadheads"?

The answer never changes no matter how long we debate it...(and let's not highjack Mike's thread).

The answer will always be the  sharpest  broadhead.

Ron