Exit Holes .. bloodtrails. . penetration?

[wingnut]

Doc,

Interesting concept!  I will be checking how sharp my heads are on exit from now on.  We spend a great deal of time and effort getting them sharp for entry.  Going to be a true judgement if they are sharp on exit.

I compare this to the other day when Rusty, Jason and I were at Gil's.  Gil's grandson took his first buck that morning and his dad had it hung up and was skinning.  He cut through the hair around both legs and proceeded.  He was really struggling until I went over and handed him my Helle knife.  The job went easy from there on.  Even though his knife was sharp the cutting of the hair dulled it enough that it didn't work as well.

Does the same thing happen to a BroadHead?

Mike

[MikeW]

a sharpening system that allowed me to get a very shaving sharp head...but it had a radical 20-degree bevel and it apparently dulled cutting through the deer...so that on exit, it wasn't making anywhere near the hemmoragic damage as when it was freshly going in!

I've always wondered about using/getting such a fine edge. It would be very susceptible to the edge rolling over. I guess a lot would have to do with the hardness of the steel but I would think a very sharp edge at a 25-30 angle would be a better choice.

Does anyone know what the angle of a three blade is? Like the WW or Snuffer. I'm guessing 30-33 degrees. If it is that's one of the reasons they are so hard to get them hair popping sharp.

[Kingwouldbe]

Originally posted by BradLantz:
..... but the exit hole, being much lower then the entry, filled with lung tissue, flesh etc ..... My KS buck literally had fist size piece of lung stopping up the exit hole
JMHO

Brad, with all do respect Sir, it was probably blood that had coagulated into a jello, the lungs don't come apart unless you slice a piece off the edge.

Not saying it couldn't happen, just not probable, if it's lung, when you squeeze it in your hand or fingers it wont come apart, if its coagulated blood it will squeeze out your hand like jello.

Congrats on your kill

[BradLantz]

Kingwouldbe  thats possible, sure looked like chunks of bright lungs to me though !

Another thought .... like black bears are known to not leave good bloodtrails because of their fat layers, some whitetails ( like the Kansas ones I chase every year ) can have an aweful lot of fat on them.

That could add to the problem of exit holes = good blood trailing couldn't it ?

[Doc Nock]

Originally posted by wingnut:
Doc,

Even though his knife was sharp the cutting of the hair dulled it enough that it didn't work as well.

Does the same thing happen to a BroadHead?

Mike

Oh, mike...let me stop you right there!         I'm the last person to give advice on sharpening.

My dear friend, Ed Schlief, AK Bowhunting got me started on the Redi-Edge...man I was proud...could whip a razor edge on BH's and my knives...

I have, like so many self-professed "sharpening impaired" people, a drawer full of dozens of systems that were to be the dead nuts best last thing ever needed! Uh-huh...     :(    

When I made the comment to Ron (Sharpster) that I seldom get a good blood trail (or any) from a 2blade... he lit right up! He shared some words and insights Ed Ashby found in his research on BH's, design, bevels, etc... and that it wasn't the 2 blade itself...but likely the BH not staying sharp on the way through...

Bottom line: Ed's later response to clarify, shared that often a fine edge like I was using..will dull just on the hair, or going through the meat...let alone if it touches a rib or the like...then part way through..it's pushing arteries and veins aside..or just partly cutting them..not slicing them clean open like it should...ergo...more clotting...less hemmoraging, less blood trail.

We all SHOULD know that blood platelets (those things causing blood to clot) like or need something to grab ahold of to start forming a clot...a rough cut clots faster than a clean one...and while it generates a lot of arguments, biology and medical research seems to support 100% that a smooth sharp edge forms a clean, smooth cut is harder to stop bleeding than any cut with ragged edges the plattlets can grab a hold of!

I suspect that my exit wounds had several inches of the last part of teh wound track that were poor cuts..clotted up heavily, and didn't drain out causing the wound to be clogged with clots, but the initial cutting path was sharp and sliced clean cuts that bled and the critter died in sight or earshot...so I found them. Lucky me!

There are always dozens of variables...those years, the deer had 4" of fat on them. I love using ribs...but they were so layered in fat...and so greasy...I stopped using them. So I figured the exit hole just clogged with fat...

Truth is they died quick... within 80-100 yards... and full up of blood in the thoraic cavity when I opened them...

And I have to re-sharpen my bh's every other day riding in the quiver... they just didn't STAY sharp!

As you suggest...some is the hardness of the steel (apparently that is why the Griz 160-190's are so hard to sharpen well...they harder'n the hinges of hell!)...but once sharp...they stay sharp. Ron's shared vignetts of trying to dull them on purpose on 6061 hard alum...and couldn't!      :eek:    

To answer your question by 3rd party: Ron and Ed claim that is exactly it...that some edges, the way they're done, just aren't very durable.  When I researched my Redi-Edge and saw it was laying down a 20* bevel... things came clear.

My carpenter father always told me a chisel or tool with a fine edge would cut well..once...but a more steep angle would hold a "working" edge long time!

What I didn't know till I got conversing with Ron was that a steeper angle...CAN...can be shaving sharp.

Using his system...I now can get a 25, 27 or even a 30 degree bevel to shave hair that pops off like crazy! Getting that angle on a BH that is a laminated design like the Griz, STOS, etc...is a BEAR! Gringing or working through that liminated overlay till it's all gone and in that angle...that desired BEVEL is pure-T-hell!

Once it's done... oh, my! I went back and using diamond hones and KME knife sharpener...changed all the angles/bevels on all my knives...from the flimsy 20* Redi Edge...to a 27* durable edge and now they are all...ALL shaving sharp and seem to hold an edge a lot, lot longer...

NOt to say OTHER variables don't play in... and I'm sure there have been a lot of good scenarios shared already about "what ifs" and "I found that"... but to answer y our specific question, I'd refer you to Ron or Ed... but that is exactly what they told me...and I ended up being sooo convinced... I've had to do the bloody hard work to get BH bevels changed before I could carry them to the woods...

It's not fun...not changing that bevel on laminated heads... I hated it...but felt a lot more comfortable KNOWING that my head wasn't what I thought was sharp...but I now KNOW and TRUST that the head will be that sharp all the way through a critter...and not just on my arm hair before the shot...

Does that help? Sorry for so much rhetoric...but this being home job searching leaves me divest of human interaction so when I get a chance to share...                          

[Hawkeye]

Very interesting thread.  That last two does I've killed this season were with the same arrow.  Glue on Woodsman on a 125gr steel adapter (Trad Lite shaft, 47# @29" bow).  Both times, I got a pass through with the arrow sticking in the ground.  Both times, I was amazed to see after brushing it off that the broadhead was still sharp enough to shoot at another deer.  Of course I touched it up, but would not have had to worry about sending it through another "victim" as is.  These are file sharpened, then touched up on emery cloth.

It is fascinating to see the variety of experiences we see from our various setups and conditions.

Daryl

[coconutdave]

Great thread guys! This is the reason I come to Tradgang.    

[Ray Hammond]

After running some hunts this year, and from 9 years of operating an urban deer hunting program I can promise you the single biggest factor in game not being recovered isn't shot placement- its a lack of sharpness in broadheads.

Don't fire back at me that YOUR broadheads are sharp....if they are, then I am telling you that you are in a minority.

Getting broadheads sharp is easy if you know how, and a pain in the arxxe if you don't..and a lot of people need our assistance in this effort.

[Lost Arra]

I've read this entire thread a couple of times. Great information. Thanks Mike.

Could this be summarized?    

Assuming you hit both lungs:
1. Two holes are better than one.

2. Holes positioned low are better than high.

3. Deer with an arrow hanging out of it's side might be getting severe internal damage but he/she will run like crazy (I've experienced this one).

4. Deer that have received pass thru wounds may be startled but will probably run less if at all. (I've experienced this one too.)

5. Spend time sharpening your broadheads.

6. I haven't seen this posted but if given the opportunity shoot 'em with a second arrow. Four holes have to be better than two.  

[SuperK]

Could the reason be that many "Old Timers" prefered a filed edge over a honed edge was the hardness (or lack of it) of the steel in their broadheads?  Several have stated that a honed edge would dull quickly on hair,mud-caked hide,etc. where a filed edge would still "grab" even after being shot through an animal. If your broadhead has "soft" steel in it, would a filed edge produce a better bloodtrail than a honed edge that has "rolled over"?

[Doc Nock]

SuperK...

First...Hooboy... I'm in over my head...but as I have been under special "tutelage" to learn to use a new sharpening "system" correctly...and to remove that maddening layer of extra steel on a laminated broad head...I've had an epiphany.

I was recently taught and found true that one shouldn't stop "working the coarse stone/diamond hone, or black wet 150 grit paper" until the blade edge will shave hair...or try really hard to do so... and that is at the COARSEST level!

I always figured if it got "close" at the coarse material stage...then it would get sharper with the finer grits/hones/stones. Wrong!   :(  

That amazed me. Using my previous mentors' suggestions of how to tell if something is sharp...I'd have thought I was at a "sharp" place with the roughest stone/hone/grit a few weeks back! Nope.

But alas, I'd not YET learned it should shave hair rght there so I spent a lot of time doing the next several levels of stone/hone/grit paper to get it "finished..."

Imagine my amazement when I knocked off that first rough "sharp feeling edge" only to find it wouldn't cut zippo!

I have this new insight..or theory for those who disagree, that indeed, that sense that a file sharpened head that seems all "catchy" and sharp enough to slice your eye, MAY indeed, not really be sharp!

Using the "cross the thumb skin" and over the fingernail techniques..it seemed way sharp...but when I knocked off that jagged edge..it wasn't close. Seems that "jagged" roughness makes it FEEL sharp...but at best..it's just "catchy sharp" for lack of a better term.

I have several friends, mentors and teachers of the arcane that have sworn a jagged edge feeling file-sharpened edge is sharper... only thing that made me ever know it wasn't the best edge for hunting is what I referenced above... MEDICAL RESEARCH.

Ragged cuts clot way quicker and we don't WANT clotting..we want hemorrhaging...and that comes from a slick, smooth razor sharp edge.

I know folks will make idols of me now and poke pins in it...cause it goes against a lot of "traditional" thinking. But dangnabbit..blood plattlets, clotting factor cells, they look for something to cling to so as to form a clot...any rough edge cut will clot faster than a smooth slice! Which is why our cholesterol plaque in our veins cause clots and we take cholesterol meds to keep that plaque down..so there is nothing there for the plattelets to cling to!

And to further back Ray Hammond's point...I now realize it's not JUST about HOW SHARP one's broad head edge is...but how DURABLE that sharp edge is! Sharp in...sharp out...will cause more damage and horrific bleeding "throughout the wound channel" and therefore...better penetration, better chance for an exit wound and then...better blood trail, it would seem!

PS. I went back and found Ed Ashby's quote in an email where I asked about this sharp broad head stuff:
Ed wrote,"IMHO, between similar profile broadheads you will be able to easily SEE the difference in the blood trails left by a truly sharp, high hardness BH and and that left by a head with lower hardness; assuming both are equally sharp going in. I'm also convinced that you'll be able to see a diference in the average animal reaction to the hits. A pass-through hit with a super sharp BH that stays super sharp throughout the penetration often elicits very little animal alarm, especially when no heavy bone is hit. They don't run as fast and as far before collapsing. Sometimes they don't even react at all, other than just a flinch at the hit. I've sure seen a disproportinate number of my animals fall, compared to the bowhunter's I've guided."

[Sharpster]

Originally posted by wingnut:
Doc,

Interesting concept!  I will be checking how sharp my heads are on exit from now on.  We spend a great deal of time and effort getting them sharp for entry.  Going to be a true judgement if they are sharp on exit.

I compare this to the other day when Rusty, Jason and I were at Gil's.  Gil's grandson took his first buck that morning and his dad had it hung up and was skinning.  He cut through the hair around both legs and proceeded.  He was really struggling until I went over and handed him my Helle knife.  The job went easy from there on.  Even though his knife was sharp the cutting of the hair dulled it enough that it didn't work as well.

Does the same thing happen to a BroadHead?

Mike

Sure does Mike.

I've heard soooo many people say "well, a broadhead only has to make one cut". That's certainly true but think of the forces applied to the cutting edge during the nano-second that the broadhead is making that "one cut".

A broadhead slamming into and through hair, hide, flesh, and likely at least some bone at 160 fps is equal to your knife making at least a couple of hundred individual cuts... and the steel used in knives is often superior to the steel used for broadheads.

We're drifting a bit off topic again but, I think it's an important ingredient in the "Exit holes...bloodtrails...Penetration" recipe.
 
Ron

[BradLantz]

what angle of grind is a Thunderhead ? Does anyone know ?

because they are some of the scariest sharp out of the box blades ever, and I shot through my KS buck and one in 2003, several elk and other deer and I know for a fact that they go in ultra sharp, cut hair, break bone and exit and they'll still cut you really bad if you don't watch it.

I don't know that I buy the "razor sharp going in doesn't come out sharp" theory.

Now if a T-head is a 32 or 34 degree angle or something (as opposed to say, a 20 degree) then I could see some validity .... but I'm betting a T-head is pretty low angle or else they'd not be THAT sharp.

right or wrong ?

[TomMcDonald]

Originally posted by Doc Nock:
SuperK...

First...Hooboy... I'm in over my head...but as I have been under special "tutelage" to learn to use a new sharpening "system" correctly...and to remove that maddening layer of extra steel on a laminated broad head...I've had an epiphany.

I was recently taught and found true that one shouldn't stop "working the coarse stone/diamond hone, or black wet 150 grit paper" until the blade edge will shave hair...or try really hard to do so... and that is at the COARSEST level!

I always figured if it got "close" at the coarse material stage...then it would get sharper with the finer grits/hones/stones. Wrong!    :(  

That amazed me. Using my previous mentors' suggestions of how to tell if something is sharp...I'd have thought I was at a "sharp" place with the roughest stone/hone/grit a few weeks back! Nope.

But alas, I'd not YET learned it should shave hair rght there so I spent a lot of time doing the next several levels of stone/hone/grit paper to get it "finished..."

Imagine my amazement when I knocked off that first rough "sharp feeling edge" only to find it wouldn't cut zippo!

I have this new insight..or theory for those who disagree, that indeed, that sense that a file sharpened head that seems all "catchy" and sharp enough to slice your eye, MAY indeed, not really be sharp!

Using the "cross the thumb skin" and over the fingernail techniques..it seemed way sharp...but when I knocked off that jagged edge..it wasn't close. Seems that "jagged" roughness makes it FEEL sharp...but at best..it's just "catchy sharp" for lack of a better term.

I have several friends, mentors and teachers of the arcane that have sworn a jagged edge feeling file-sharpened edge is sharper... only thing that made me ever know it wasn't the best edge for hunting is what I referenced above... MEDICAL RESEARCH.

Ragged cuts clot way quicker and we don't WANT clotting..we want hemorrhaging...and that comes from a slick, smooth razor sharp edge.

I know folks will make idols of me now and poke pins in it...cause it goes against a lot of "traditional" thinking. But dangnabbit..blood plattlets, clotting factor cells, they look for something to cling to so as to form a clot...any rough edge cut will clot faster than a smooth slice! Which is why our cholesterol plaque in our veins cause clots and we take cholesterol meds to keep that plaque down..so there is nothing there for the plattelets to cling to!

And to further back Ray Hammond's point...I now realize it's not JUST about HOW SHARP one's broad head edge is...but how DURABLE that sharp edge is! Sharp in...sharp out...will cause more damage and horrific bleeding "throughout the wound channel" and therefore...better penetration, better chance for an exit wound and then...better blood trail, it would seem!

PS. I went back and found Ed Ashby's quote in an email where I asked about this sharp broad head stuff:
Ed wrote,"IMHO, between similar profile broadheads you will be able to easily SEE the difference in the blood trails left by a truly sharp, high hardness BH and and that left by a head with lower hardness; assuming both are equally sharp going in. I'm also convinced that you'll be able to see a diference in the average animal reaction to the hits. A pass-through hit with a super sharp BH that stays super sharp throughout the penetration often elicits very little animal alarm, especially when no heavy bone is hit. They don't run as fast and as far before collapsing. Sometimes they don't even react at all, other than just a flinch at the hit. I've sure seen a disproportinate number of my animals fall, compared to the bowhunter's I've guided."

I reckon a shaving-sharp broadhead feels duller than one that won't shave when you draw your thumb over it.

You should be able to get a shaving blade with a file. I don't start using the oil-stone until I can shave my arms with the grain just using a file.

[wingnut]

This is a little drift but it is to the same end.  A well placed exit wound.  

I've been a big supporter of "file sharp" for years and have never had penetration problems, even on larger game.  But I'm going to sharpen my Woodsman's to a "don't want to be in the same room" sharp for an upcoming hog hunt.  I'll let ya know how it goes.

Mike

[MikeW]

But I'm going to sharpen my Woodsman's to a "don't want to be in the same room" sharp for an upcoming hog hunt. I'll let ya know how it goes.

Good luck. I can get them pretty dang sharp and awhile ago I thought I had it figured out but I can't consistently reproduce it. Every once in awhile I'll get one hair popping sharp. And I've tried a number of techniques. Last night I went back to a file and a couple stones. Got'em real sharp but not hair popping. I have to use a strop and some polishing compound to get that and I don't have it with me.

I'd sure like to see someone in person get a WW hair popping sharp with a file and couple stones.

[wingnut]

I'm going to start with the file and get them where I hunt now.  Then using diamond stones, work them from extra course to xxfine using Charlies technique with each.  They should be at the sharpest they can be at the end.

I will be using the DMT duofold sharpeners to do it.  I'll let you know how it goes.

Maybe do a sharp along with pics.

Mike

[Tom Leemans]

I've used 160gr Snuffers for years, because they produce big holes, a good thing to have if there's only one hole. I file sharpen them, and I touch them up every so often. As a kid, I once watched Fred Bear hunting in Alaska, and he was touching up his broadheads with a file next to the campfire. As I remember it (Paraphrasing here) "A couple of light strokes to touch them up is all you need." Apparently, this was something he did every day while hunting.

For years, I've wanted to try Tom Mussato's (hope I spelled that right) method where he establishes the edge, then rakes the edge with the edge of the file to harden it and produce tiny serrations, then touches the eges up again to finish the job. It makes sense, but I just can't bring myself to rake a file across the edge of my nice Snuffers.

[elknut1]

I do not like any head straight out of the package, I sharpen all heads better than the way they come to us. I start with the Wensel Woodsmans or SnufferSS by blacking out all 6 surfaces with a sharpie then I pull them from back to front over a 12" bastard file until all surfaces are shinning, you must get them shinning from back to tip completely. This step can take 5-10minutes per head. This will set the tone for the perfect angle to now sharpen up!

  Once done, I use a med/fine Arkansas stone. I again pull the head from back to tip. I do all sides 15 times then 12 then 10 then 8 then 6 then 4 then 2 then 1. I then turn the stone over on the fine side & repeat. Once I'm done with those steps I then with the weight of the head only pull it along the fine side once per side another 20-30 times with little to no finger wt. Once I hit each side once that's considered 3 strokes. When you are done those bad boys are razor sharp!!!  20-30- minutes per head is common!

  I've also tried this exact process with the DMT Diamond Stones in place of the final finishes with the Arkansas Stone, the DMT's don't even come close in sharpness comparison for me.
  The above process will get your heads shaving sharp without to fine of an edge. I've tried stropping too, it's too fine a edge for my liking.

  ElkNut1

[Sharpster]

Just a quick note on stones:

Like Elknut says, Diamond stones are really aggressive and can take a blade from dead blunt to pretty stinkin sharp relatively quickly but, even the best XX-fine diamond stone in the world can't begin to polish like a ceramic or Arkansas stone.

The progression should be (ideally):

File (if necessesary), then diamond stone(s), followed by ceramic(s), then Arkansas, and finish up by stropping on leather or my personal favorite, corrugated cardboard.

Make sure to get the blades are very, very sharp with the file or coarse diamond stone before progressing to the next grit. If not you'll end up with beautifull, mirror polished edges that are duller than dirt.

Ron