Forgewood shafts.

[TomMcDonald]

So this Lignin could be artificially created or replaced by another chemical?

[Danny Rowan]

The Alaskan Hemlock that Alaskan Forgewoods used is a very good arrow shaft, problem was that the attention to detail that occured under Bill was not there for the Alaskan business,lot of inferiour shafts got to market. As long as you used the top notch shafts very good, the seconds and others not very good. I shoot the Alaskans and have never had a problem with the top notch shafts, problem is when you find them on that auction site you have no idea of the grade so you might pay over a hundred bucks for a doz shafts to find out they are not the best grade and therefore not good arrow material.

As for them swelling up, not a problem if sealed, even the Sweetlands will swell up if moisture gets to them and once they swell they are useless.

Danny

[TomMcDonald]

I'll keep an eye out on the site.

Sealing has always been, in my mind, a given when using any wood outdoors or that would be in contact with moisture and even dirt.
Most woods will swell to a certain extent when they get moist anyway without sealing.

[stump man]

Lignin’s exact chemical nature is extremely complex and  not fully understood, principally because isolating it from wood changes it chemically…..Hoadley

 “Understanding wood”,  The Taunton Press, box 335, Newtown Connecticut, 06470

[Kid's Pastor]

Snag,

Did they try fir? I have always liked fir as an arrow and it is available.

God Bless,

Paul

[TomMcDonald]

TTT

[Joseph]

Bill at Alhegany Mountain can help you.  Depending on what spine you are looking for I would try Ipe, Hickory, or Purple Heart.  All 3 will make a very heavy and strong arrow.  Joseph

[stump man]

This thread got me thinking back some.  Last night I dug out an old video and watched it again.   It’s called “the history of the compressed cedar arrow”.  Bill did a little presentation at a Traditional Archers of Oregon banquet one year, around 1987.  Larry Jones of Wilderness Sound Productions filmed it and together with Dave Doran of Archery Past they put the video together.  I’m sure Dave still has copies if anybody is interested.

I highly recommend it to anyone that has any curiosity concerning Bill Sweetland and/or his process of the original compressed cedar shaft.  A wealth of knowledge, plus if you know who to look for you get a glimps of Jim Brackenbury of Brackenbury Bows before he passed away and  a young Norm Johnson of Blacktail Bows (before he was  even building them I believe).

stump

[TomMcDonald]

That sounds very interesting.
I've only just discovered Forgewoods but I'm very keen to learn more and even to get hold of some.

Did you ever shoot them Stump man?

[stump man]

yes

stump

[TomMcDonald]

Originally posted by stump man:
yes

stump

And how were they?????          

[Steve H.]

Down in SE Alaska the Western hemlock and Sitka Spruce are the predominant trees.

On the Kenai Peninsula I have seen Mountain Hemlock and the larger spruce species is some hybrid called Kitz Spruce (I may have misspelled that!) which is, I think, a Sitka/White/Black spruce hybrid.  Lots of black spruce on the west of the peninsula but they are small and scrubby.

We don't have Doulas Fir up here.

[Orion]

As Joseph says, Bill at Allegheny Mt can make you some very nice hardwood shafts in 5/16 at heavy spine and physical weight.  I recently got some 5/16 hickories spined at 80-85# and weighing about 650-680 grains raw.  That pretty easily will get you into the 800 grain arrow range.  

However, you will not be able to get much more than 12-15% FOC, unless you can find a 300 grain glue on point.  Keep in mind, too, that hardwoods don't recover from parallax as quickly as softwoods like cedar so one usually needs to overspine with hardwoods.  Adding a lot of weight to the front calls for even more spine.  The short of it is that there is a limit as to how much one can front load wood.  Wood, regardless of the type, just doesn't exist in spines high enough to handle extreme front loading for modern bows with fast flite strings in the 60-65# and up category.    

I agree with bowdoc, Stumpman and Bjorn re the Sweetlands.  They're about as straight as wood can get.  And the small diameter, heavy physical weight and heavy spine as well makes them something special.  I've managed to find a few over the years.  I, too, use them only for hunting, but I do use them, so when they're gone, they're gone.

[Steve H.]

Oh yeah, my buddy made some purple heart shafts in his shaftshooter that are thin diameter and heavy.  I have shot one a bit and it past the test.

[LKH]

I think I have about a dozen of the AK made ones left and 4 of the old Sweetland's.  I won't use the Sweetlands and don't shoot the AK ones much anymore.  I credit them with an elk and kudu that a lighter shaft may not have killed.  They are just too heavy for most of my open country hunting.

[Tom Phillips]

I really like the Forgewoods (Sweetland) they do quiet a bow and work well for treestand hunting were closer shots happen.
 I have searched for quite a few years for them and have about 3-1/2 doz.I do use them for special occasion hunts & not stump shooting etc.I have owned the Sweetland video very very informative,BUT be fore warned Mr.Sweetland can talk you to sleep in his video !!!

[stump man]

Tom:  Sorry...kinda spaced out there for six months or so i guess, grew up in the 60's & 70's you understand, ha!.  THEY WERE THE BEST OF THE BEST OF COURSE(forgewoods, not the era)!!!  Bill was my good friend and he taught me a lot.  Some of the shafts I currently make (and i'm sure bill would agree) rival with the forgewoods of past without having to go thru the meticulous process he invented.

Joesph and Steve H. Hits it on the head and identify's a lot of the characteristics as being species specific.  IPE, Hickory and Purple heart can give mass along with small diameter and tuffness or rupture strength...both of which are highley desirable among today's archers. Bill's process built these two favorable characteristics into an arrow shaft using a species that just didn't/doesn't have it under normal circumstances, POC!!. He just stuffed a whole lota wood into a very small package to get there type of thing...and he got it!!.  Recall if I may (off the top of my head here, I may be wrong) but under normal pressure visualize the knock end of your arrow to be 5/8" thick and the point end to be 1 1/4" thick. He squished this whole mass into a 5/16", 21/64" or 11/32" frame work to get what he wanted as a spine wt./mass wt. ratio. Keep in mind, yesteryears archers didn't like a heavy mass weight in their arrows like they do nowday's. 500gr's was a heavy arrow (finished) back in the 50's-60's. Another reason he used POC! it was light mass weight and he could do this process without getting TO heavy. With other species he quickley got to heavy in mass weight(ie doug-fir or any of the hardwoods).  One of his biggest problems was getting so heavy(mass wt) archers didn't want them. It boiled down to PERCENTAGE OF COMPRESSION which was about 60% of total capability with the hydrualics that he had((with POC). If he went more than 60% they became to heavy(mass wt)than archers of the day would purchase.

FOC!! Forgewoods had a built in FOC (front of center)mass weight, which todays archer has become obsessed with (my opinion). recall if you will, knock end was 5/8" point end was 1 1/4" before compression. Bill's objective to adding the mass weight up front was to reduce the breakage behind the point that was a common occurance with the POC! At the time he developed this process he was a professor at Berkely University in California teaching archery classes. Breakage behind the point was his main concern, as it is today with POC that has not unergone his process.! This fact hasn't changed in 60 years!..No Wooden arrow shaft of modern manufacturing(doesn't matter the species) will ever obtain the FOC mass weight capabilities the old forgewoods did, and remain within the shaft footprint, without using bill's process(again my opinion).

FOC vs.Balance: With today's variety's of alternate species avilable in shaft material we don't need to build up the mass behind the point to prevent breakage behind the point like they did back in the 60's -70's with POC. We can simply select a different species and get both mass and rupture strength from our decission. ie hickory, IPE, Fir, purple heart.etc.etc..

  Paradox recovery: I assume we all know the definition of paradox recovery. If not research it, figure it out and come back. Bill used POC because it was the shaft material of his day and was one of the best for quickness of paradox recovery even after it had been compressed.... Especially after it had been compressed with the built in FOC!!... So they say, "softwoods recover from paradox quicker than the hardwoods"...I believe this to be true but have no experience personally with the hardwoods, so I refrain to commint further other than to ask those that have experimented with both and may know more than myself such as Fred Asbell, Marv Cochran, Dave Doran, Wes Wallace, Norm Johnson, Ted Fry,etc .

Orion:  Give me an addy & spine wt. You prefer(static)

Steve: What kinda shaft you get that Muskox with?

LKH: good to see you still out there.  Vern's still giving everybody a bad time ( thats good).

So sorry for the length, kinda got carried away.

stump

[Steve H.]

Stump:  I was just goina mention, check out my two going on three play-by-play hunt threads going on right now.  One to start in  5 minutes.  Three critters (actually 4, but didn't mention one goat) and more action to come using SA-Douglas Fir!  ; ^ )

[String Cutter]

Just would like to know??? The company has been for sale for 10-12 yrs.??? How much is he asking for it??? Are we talking a small business I can run out of a large 2 car garadge or is it factory size???

[flint kemper]

String Cutter last time I knew around $90,000.00 I thought. Wood source is the big factor. My buddy Fletcher on here had some 20+ year old forgewood arrows and he spin tested them on his spinner and they spun perfect like an aluminum. I was in awe. Flint