I am not persuaded filed vs polished

[paleFace]

Rusty it's good to see you back, been a long time.  how's things down in the Lone Star State?

keep this going, i'm learning some stuff here. got a question and I have ask it on the other sharpening threads going, but haven't received an answer. here it is a different way.  does the direction in which the file cuts the broad head blade have any affect on sharpness or durability.  

if you file across 2 blades on a 3 blade head instead of pushing or pulling from front to back or vice versa you end up with the edge worked towards the ferrule on one side and away from it on the other on each individual blade.  where as on a 2 blade head each angle is worked in the same direction.  inquiring minds want to know?
    :confused:

maybe this diagram will help explain my question:
   

[Kingwouldbe]

Actually, they tried using obsidian that was fractured to the last molecule for surgery, they had to stop using it because, they could not get it to stop bleeding.

The main reason to use a finely honed broadhead, is so it wont stop bleeding until all the blood is gone.

[riot1013]

I will throw something that I do not think has been mentioned yet.....Last year I cut my hand badly with a reciprocating saw.....quite obviously a serrated edge.  That cut took about 2 or 3 minutes to begin bleeding (at which point it began bleeding heavily).  A friend of mine cut himself with my pocket knife a few weeks ago in almost the same exact spot.  My shaving sharp knife caused pretty much instantaneous bleeding.  Why....pretty simple...shock.  When the body detects it has been injured(ie. feels pain) its natural response is to constrict blood flow to that area to atempt to minimize damage (blood loss).  If the body doesn't detect the cut due to the blade being very sharp, the state of shock is considerably less, the blood vessels do not constrict as much and the bleeding will begin instantly.  As for the micro serrations caused by a file....they do not add much in my opinion.  If you like them keep them.  But as long as your broadheads can shave you should be good.

Riot

[trashwood]

Rob - good question.  when wood working ya learn  a process called draw filing.  the file is pulled down the work with the file being at 45 degree or so.  so instead on pushing the file across the work it it pulled down the work.  that is how I use the file.  I draw file my BH from the ferrule to the point.  

Wingnut has got a good sharpening thread going....I was just tiring to deside if a scaple edge was better, the same , not as good as a filed edge.  Even after some excellent points....I remain undesided.  I will continue to draw file my BH till we shoot some stuff with wingnut's megasharp BH         IF they work better I'll be changing if not....if it ain't borke don't fix it

Kingwouldbe - I absolutley agree....that is exactly the reason I used draw filed three blade woodsman    

rusty

[trashwood]

Let me ask the question another way.  Is there anyone who was using a file sharpened three blade espcially a woodsman that believes the sharpening process was the cause of them not recovering an animal?? and if so would you share the situation with us???

I have yet to talk to anyone that had a good hit with a file sharpened woodsman that thought the sharpening process was the reason for not recovering.  actually I can give you several stories where the opposite it true.

rusty

[SlowBowinMO]

Rob, great diagram!

I don't think it hurts a thing, in fact it may actually help.  

[paleFace]

Thanks Rusty!

two examples of file sharpened WW's with excellent results.

 the first deer i shot with a file sharpened WW was devastating to say the least. the buck jumped at the shot and the arrow hit him in the chest just in front of the shoulder and the arrow exited behind the off shoulder and buried into a log. the blood trail was brief. 50 yards max and i couldn't have made a better one with a 5 gallon bucket.

another animal was an impala that the arrow struck in the hind quarter. he only went 75 yards. arrow passed all the way through both hind quarters and fell out the opposite side as he ran off. file sharpened WW. great blood trail although we saw him go down so we didn't need to follow it.

[Soilarch]

Can I stir the pot on this one as well?


Nature is amazing.  Period.  The designs are awesome and whether you think they are here by intelligent design or "natural selection" it should stand to reason that whatever nature uses is more than likely the best design.

Sharks' teeth have "micro-serrations" and mosquitoes' needle-stinger-thingy do also.  In fact there's a new needle design modeled after the mosquito's stinger.

Personally I've thought about this a lot and can't come to a conclusion. I do know that on my knives I'll purposely NOT polish the edges sometimes if I know I'll be using it for meat prep. (Leave it after a medium or medium-fine equivalent and hit it with a one or two passes of light stropping just to get all the "teeth" lined up.)  Try it sometime and see for yourself. No, it won't shave near as well but it cuts meat amazingly well and gives you a little more control since it doesn't seem to "pull" the meat as much in whatever direction your blade is traveling.   Yet, I still like a mirror edge for a all-purpose blade.  

I think it's a crap shoot really, get as sharp as you can. Use a head with decent quality steel and go to it.  Spend your time practicing or scouting and save yourself a headache.
   

[Luke Vander Vennen]

I think one thing that should also be considered is the overall energy efficiency of the edge itself. An important distinction can be made between cutting a steak and a broadhead cutting a lung. The knife cutting the steak has a constant force that keeps it moving regardless of the resistance. The broadhead only has as much energy as is held in the energy of the arrow. Once that energy is used up, the blade stops going in. So if we know that there is only a set amount of energy available to the edge for cutting, which style uses it best? Do the tiny serrations of the filed sharpened blade impede the efficiency of the blade at all? I keep getting the image of a saw blade working in wet wood. The teeth keep getting gummed up with chips and then won't cut as well. Does this happen with the file sharpened broadhead?

[trashwood]

Luke the edge you get from draw filing a three blade reminds one of a saw edge as much as Jennifer Beil reminds you of a refigerator.  

Since Wingnut and I have started shooting Woodsman unless major bone is hit the oinly debate has been how far the BH stuck in ground or tree on the other side.

rusty

[JC]

Well, I'm just waiting for the food to cook before all the family arrives so I'll weigh in my 1/2 cent:

I've used both rough and honed edges and vascilate between using either one. Paper wheel, "mirror sharp" system, water wheels, arkans stones...I've used all of them to get edges with bright, flawless bevels. It cuts stuff just stupid easy, animals die just fine with them.

Files, rough diamond stones, agressive ceramics...I've used these to put "rough" edges on all types of cutting steels. These types of edges do not cut paper and a few other things as flawlessly and as easiy as the super-honed edge BUT they do "grab" flesh more ardently, they just don't cut as easily as the honed edge does once it grabs.

I offer this: an edge going past a blood vessel must be one of two things. It must be so wicked honed etc. that the blood vessel is cut before it has the chance to roll out of the way...OR it must grab the blood vessel before it has a chance to roll out of the way. Middle of either road does neither. Our medical professionals have given their opinions on how a honed edge bleeds more freely/clots less; I cannot refute an opinion that is more learned than mine. However, just how honed is that edge after it makes it's way through bone, gristle, fat to get into the goody box?

I know that when I was skinning the 20 or so bears at BQ I & II, I found that a wicked honed edge did great initially getting through the first layer of hide and making initial cuts...better than a rougher edge (I brought and used knives of both sorts and we sharpened to different levels during the process). But the rougher edge "held" longer, whether it was on the same knife or not, especially when you got down to separating joints and cutting anywhere in areas where the blade would frequently glance off bones. I've processed a few animals in my life but I never really performed a back to back test with the same blade during an extended processing session. Anecdotal evidence at best, but enough to make me question the honed edges superiority, as I thought it was in the past.

On my two blades I like a mirror edge, mainly because it's easier for me to get (paper wheel). On my 300 extremes and WW's, I use a double cut bastard file (flat, pull from back to front method) to bring up a rough wire edge and then finish on a 600grit diamond stone until all the file marks are gone....but very, very lightly on the last 100 or so individual strokes, still leaving micro-serrations on the blade. For me, even when I take the 3 blades further than that to a mirror polish, I don't think the edge is as effective as the 2 blades done the same way. I'm sure the blade angle plays a big part.

The great news is, BOTH obviously kill effectively as thousands upon thousands of expired critters will attest. 99% of the time, I don't sit on the fence on anything, but in this instance, you will typically find both a honed edge (most 2 blades) and a rougher edge (300 extreme and woodsmans) in my quiver. I'm confident in both. (sound of soapbox being kicked into the corner)

Great threads Rusty and Mike!

[Pat B.]

Good post, JC... I've used both type of edges over the years to take quite a number of critters.  I'm currently using the posished edges on my 2 blade heads with great blood trails. However, I wouldn't hesitate to use a good file sharpened head, they also work..

[coconutdave]

I believe Don Thomas uses file sharpened heads. Since he should know a little about scalpels, I think he uses them that way for a reason. I have used both and I think I get a better trail with a file sharpened head.

[Bill Carlsen]

I prefer the honed edge. However, on a caribou hunt a few years ago I was down to my last woodsman. I only had a DMT coarse stone to work with in the field. I got the woodsman to a good rough edge and took a caribou with it shortly after. It died as quickly as any other animal I have killed with a honed edge. I also  have a couple of friends (one of whom is a physician) and they do very well with filed edges. I think that a sharp edge, obtained by either method will result in quick, clean kills.

Currently my two go to broadheads are Razoercaps and Muzzy Phantoms. I have killed a number of whitetail and black bears with both head, and one moose with a RC. I hone the edges on them. In every case, even when the bh passes thru and sticks in soft earth they are still very sharp. Same thing when I shoot them into a bh target...they stay sharper than you would expect them to. So my first reaction to the issue of how sharp will the honed edge be after going thru a certain amount of hair, skin, fat, bone, etc. is that it depends on the steel. My Phantoms and Razorcaps stay sharp all the way thru. Some bhs are so soft that I would not consider using them for anything but small game and when I do that I rough sharpen them on  a belt sander and that is a far as I go with them...again, for small game.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I watch Ron LaClair sharpen heads and knives in camp every year. It's amazing. Alittle with a file, maybe, a steel, and a strop. A polished head, I suppose. His heads and knives are so sharp it just amazes me. I had him sharpen my hawk this fall, and I know I could shave with it.

I just can't do it, though. I always screw up the angles on the edges, and create more work for myself (or for Ron, HA!)

So I have forced myself to learn how to get broadheads frightenly sharp with just a file. Absolutely a serated edge. And devastating on game. I can shoot at a grouse, and have the head touched up in 3 minutes.

I do have a Schrade steel that Joe Skipp gave me, and a small file fits in the case with the steel. So if I'm feeling fancy, I use the file, a bit of the steel, and the leather case for a strop. Still a serated edge though.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

p.s....as for durabilty and a filed head: I shot an Ace Super Express head 10 times into a foam back stop. After the 10th shot, I touched it up, but I didn't realy need to.

That same broadhead went through a doe later, sticking in the hard iron ore gravely ground. It then bounced around in the back of a pickup truck for 2 days. Later, Tim Cosgrove and I were poking the arrow through the doe I shot trying to look at the angle, while Ron took some pictures. This abused broadhead sliced the bejeezes out of Tims hand. It was still scary sharp.

[Sam McMichael]

I sure don't have the experience a lot of you guys have, but that's sure never held me back from voicing an opinion. My grandfather was a shoemaker, and he kept some of the scariest sharp knives you ever want to see. But he had two sets, one for cutting thick hide leather such as harness and heavy boots and one for lighter materials.  The knives used for the heavy stuff were not polished smooth, because they cut and separated the leather better (I do realize that live hides and tanned leather may be too different for realistic comparison).  The ones used for lighter work were honed very smooth and made very fine, precise cuts. Perhaps a broadhead with bleeder blades could combine these qualities. The leading edges file sharp for penetrating hide and hair, with the bleeders finely honed to cut organs and blood vessels. Is this sensible, or just an idea that sounds better than it actually is?  Also, Happy Thanksgiving to all - I've only been on Trad Gang for a few months and really appreciate the great discussions. Thanks, friends.

[Soilarch]

McMichael, I've thought of something along the same lines...I just think from the other end of that line    

I've been thinking about the next deer I get leaving it as is and then using a file BH, a honed BH and then a BH with the front 2/3 honed and the back 1/3 filed. My reasoning is the honed part does the piercing and the outer 1/3 of the edge still has those iddy-biddy serrations to 'grab' vessels before they roll off the corner.

I would say your grandfather was of the same opinion I was.  Anytime you're going to have to use a back-and-forth motion, for the thicker heavier stuff you could hold in your hands, you want tiny serrations (TINY TINY serrations) and anytime you're going to just push-cut you want polished smooth edges.  Straight razors are indeed polished and they are used in a strictly push-cut method...unless you're suicidal.  


We need to realize the irony of this topic, as even a fresh straight razor edge is still pretty 'ragged' if magnified enough.  If you let it set for several days it will become even more ragged...all by itself.

[reecool]

The same as Sam , i don't have the experience as most of you ! , i use the Xblock system on Snuffer and Magnus 2 blade and finish by a leather honing with compoud and try the rubber band trick by slicing it . Like the idea of get rid off all those small serrations whom may diminish the penetration of my arrow by catching on tissue . I'm woodworker and do the same on my chisels and carving tools oil stone and leather honing , when they slice nice it's good and a pleasure to work with !
 Happy Thanksgiving all of you .
 Eric .

[George D. Stout]

It's simple for me.  I want to be able to sharpen a broadhead in the field without any accouterments save a mill file.  If you take your time and "learn" how to do it, you will still have a head that shaves hair and is deadly on game.  It's one of the reasons I don't buy pre-sharpened heads nor do I want someone else to sharpen them.  It's an integral part of my tradition and I enjoy it.