my turn

[Ray_G]

Brian,

Glad you found her before the wolves and coyotes did!  Good on ya for the follow up.

Ray

[Bullfrog 1]

I had almost the same comversation with a very well known bowhunter last week, only why he would never shoot Snuffers again. You must shoot what is the most accurate for you and what YOU have confidence in. For me right now it is a Magnus 1. But, I have killed plenty with Snuffers. Most shots were close with NO exit wound but with some looking I could find drops of blood to the recovery. Who knows, I may have shot them with a narrow 2 blade and got a pass through with LOTS of blood. You cannot base anything on one occasion.   BILL

[Wary Buck]

I have now bowkilled 60 deer and maybe 30 other critters, but sometimes even a perfect hit yields a poor bloodtrail...no matter what the broadhead.  And there could be lots of reasons, but fat or meat plugging the hole is a likely one.  I feel too many guys have one bad blood trail and blame the broadhead.  

I currently like Woodsman heads and in general would say that a 3-blade likely would give you a better bloodtrail, but I've had some double-lungers leave poor blood trail because of fat plugging a hole.  Best thing a guy can do is make sure his broadheads are sharp and that way if you make a perfect hit, but the blood isn't there, you still know the animal is down and you just have to find him.

Congrats, by the way, Brian, on killing a deer at so close a range!  Always a memorable one that way!

[Bowmania]

So much for the great penetration of the Ashby single bevel.  I would think that any 35 lb bow would put a sharp two bladed double bevel right through.

I'm guessing it didn't bleed because of fat or the jumping of the deer covered the hole to the chest cavity with skin.

Another reason could be that there is no way to get a single bevel as sharp as a double.  I don't happen to agree with the good Dr.  There's a reason surgeons use scalpals that are double bevel.  Broadheads don't cut bone they split it.  Everytime I went to a hardware store to get a log splitter they were always shaped like a V.

I do happen to agree with the doctor when it comes to penetration and a turning BH.  THe point of the Ashby BH at AK BH Supply turns the BH not the single bevel.  Why doesn't someone make a broadhead with that point and a double bevel?

In the good doctors defense I have never shot a Cape Buffalo.  If I was I'd probably use a 190 Griz.  With a whitetail I'm not concerned with penetration.  Any thing can do that, I want a big hole.  AND Ashby has never said what the REAL differece is - whitetails go away from you, and Cape buffalo go towards you.  See, you don't need a big hole and good blood trail for buff.

[drewsbow]

Brian : Glad to hear you got your deer , congrats . Please enlighten us as to what you found ?? Drew

[Ray Hammond]

Brian, we are waiting!

I don't mean to disparage the information you are giving us, but I've been involved in over 1000 whitetail's demise and I've not seen a single deer shot through BOTH LUNGS make it 120 yards- EVER.

Bowmania,
Your statement "no way to get a single bevel as sharp as a double" is patently false.

I'll put my Grizzly up against any surgeon's scalpel AND YOUR BROADHEADS.

And, Dr Ashby never said a grizzly cuts bone- he said it SPLITS BONE.

What turns the single bevel head is the single edge on each blade, Sir, not the tanto tip!

What will kill a cape buffalo well will kill the snot out of a whitetail....there is no difference in the way a broadhead cuts one animal vs. another- the only difference is the size and density of bone and the toughness and larger mass or smaller mass of flesh.

[tradwannabe]

I hope that the fletching is right wing with the el grande. Was it sharpened to 25 degrees? just curious. I think if the weight was over 650 grains there would have been a complete pass through which is different than a double hit, break, and come out on either side.
Just wondering?
R

[Oliverstacy]

Just my 2 cents...if you lose confidence in any part of your equipment you will not feel comfortable using it.  No matter how good the piece of equipment may or may not be.

The worst time I ever had tracking a deer was with a 2 blade head.  I did hit the deer far back and only caught part of the liver (a small part).  In this case I MADE A HORRIBLE SHOT!!  It went a long ways, the entry was high and the exit was low and got plugged with fat/guts.  I did find the deer but it took 4 hours and a night and morning to do so.

I shot another deer a few days later and watched it drop in 40 yards...double lung shot with a better angle; I never looked for blood since I saw it drop.  I changed back to 3 blade heads the next year…this was back when I shot compound and was close to 15 years ago.

I always check the blood trail to see how it went and in some instances because I didn’t find it right away and wanted to back track to see how I missed it from the beginning usually because I took the wrong initial path.

I’m glad you found your deer…that is the most important thing.  I think from reading your post you were disappointed that you didn’t find more blood but knew the shot was good.  That would be frustrating for sure but in the end the head did what it was designed to do.

Now…one last thing!!!

 

Josh

[kevgsp]

The Japanese are pretty serious about knives...there is a reason why they use single bevel carbon blades when they slice bluefin worth thousands of dollars.  Someone should tell them these knives can't be made sharp.

[Morning Star]

The Griz has about the smallest cut width out there.  I've always thought it was the worst head for blood trails and I've got some bloodless Griz kills to back that statement up.

Get your self a woodsman brotha.    Glad ya found your deer.

[Shaun]

Good work finding your deer. My experience heart shot deer run fast and can cover 120 yards in seconds. Double lung hits only fall quickly if the lungs collapse and this may not happen if the holes in the ribcage are plugged by fat or muscle.

Good shooting and good follow up.

(PS, I'll take those bothersome Grizzly's off your hands if you are changing to 3 blades)

[Diamond Paul]

I believe the deer ran that far because it was heart shot; every deer that I've heart shot (with bow or rifle) ran like a bee had stung it on the a#$!  I had one go over 200 yards once when shot with a 6mm rifle; when skinned, the heart was literally disintigrated.  I think good blood or bad blood is luck of the draw, assuming a good shot.  I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that a different broadhead would yield a different result.  Glad you found her, Paul.

[Bonebuster]

Congrats on the deer, and not allowing the hunt to end until it was over.

I bet the deer was turned a bit, stretching the hide and the holes in the hide did not match up with the holes in the ribs. As soon as the arrow broke and fell out the holes were completely closed off.

Any chance of learning something from the experience of another is fine by me. I`m all ears so to speak.

[Brian Krebs]

I will post some pictures as fast as I can.

The arrow entrance and exit wound closed up pretty tight; unless a two blade hits between the muscles - not cutting any..(slim chance) the wound will not seal up - it may not bleed as much as a 3 blade but it will bleed.

 The wound from the grizzly was a twisting wound; and it sealed up like a flap on a dryer vent.

 But the other thing; is that this deer had long hair- and the blade cut it in such a way that there was no route straight out for the blood.

 Had a normal 2 blade hit; it would have left a wound that bleeds more.

 And I say that as a person that has grounded dozens of deer with a 2 blade zwickey.

  The broadhead is apparently what it wanted to be; a head that penetrates even if there is bone in the way. But for a blood trail... it sucks.

  I think the reason that the arrow did not go all the way through ( I am holding over 70 pounds and shooting 31 inch 11/32 arrows) is because the broadhead twisted as it went through the heart muscle.

 It did indeed hit lung on each side; but I just cannot see it doing the damage that it did; without losing enough energy to keep it from a pass through. The broadhead did stick out - the deers shoulders came back and hit the arrow; snapping exactly in two.

 I feel totally sure it was dead in about ten seconds from when the arrow hit it.

 I shot that head just to see what it would do. It was a test. What happened was I got a great shot at a deer and hit it exactly where I wanted too; and it was as fine a hunt as when I shot a pope and young mulie buck. Period.

 But there I was; with a deer hit perfectly; and there was no blood save when the arrow fell out; and within a yard of that. Then it was only smears of blood on grass- and not a drop the whole time - the 171 steps I took eventually- with no blood on the snow. Blood on the snow is pretty hard to miss; and I was following the deers tracks. I had made a perfect hit on a deer; and could well have lost it to coyotes or wolves. It was a long night.

 I thought of the huge bear I had hunted for 5 years - and hit with a grizzly and lost; and in that case - there was no blood trail either.

 I will start photobucketing some pictures right now.

[Longbowwally]

Not taking up for Grizzly heads or anything, but you may not have gotten 'normal' grizzly penetration because the shot was so close and the arrow did not have tiime to recover and straighten up at such a short distance so did not penetrate as you would expect....Just a thought...

[Ray Hammond]

I'm with Shaun,
anyone who wants to get rid of those old nasty Grizzlies please send em to me...I have a good home for them where they will be loved and cared for.

Ryan....a narrow cutting width, twisting through a critter, is a lot different than a straight cut.
Remember the old broadhead shaped like an apple corer? The grizzly actually does that inside the animal, unlike the broadhead that was shaped that way.

For every crappy example anyone on here can provide about THEIR experiences, there are a thousand people who can do the opposite.

The proof is in the empirical data...not in your one or two examples. I've seen two, three, four, and five blade broadheads have L O U S Y blood trails.

Brian may have been so close there was no spinning involved...I am anxious to see whether the S cut appears in the exit wound or not.

I've seen a Simmons two blade safari open a deer like it had a zipper on its side...everything fell out of that deer, and it died in 30 yards. Biggest awful mess I've ever seen other than a coyote pack-killed doe.

I've seen a hog have to be shot with five Snuffers to kill it. That proves nothing about the Snuffer per se.

[CJ Pearson]

[Bard1]

Originally posted by Ray Hammond:


I've seen a hog have to be shot with five Snuffers to kill it. That proves nothing about the Snuffer per se.

Says a lot about the hog though!

[Bonebuster]

Again, congrats on the deer.

It IS difficult, if not impossible to argue the success of a wide two blade head, like a Delta or Magnus 1.

SOMETHING strange must have happened to prevent blood from hitting the ground.

If we are not carefull, we might learn something.

[2-BIG]

At that close of range I would not be suprised at a lack of penetration on any animal. The arrow doesn't have the time or distance to get the kinetic energy it needs plus the arrow is still in paradox so it wouldn't hit straight on like it would after the arrow has went through paradox.