What really is traditional?

[JBiorn]

I mean here we are with all the modernism. I see many very good bows that are laminated with the likes of man-made materials such as carbon, and it makes me wonder really how traditional this really is?
 I guess this is an ongoing debate amongst the gang, but here we go..
 I have shot several outstanding bows that were of the laminate variety. They are very accurate and very fast. My though on this is this--Doesn't the use of modern materials make this nothing short of a wheelbow? Where do we draw the line at traditionalism? Realizing that the ancients built laminate bows, I guess that a laminated bow is acceptable as a "traditional" bow. However, I am wondering about the use of modern materials. Some of these new bows(I will use the Centaur bows for an example)shoot a lot like a compound! These bows are so close to a compound that it's not funny. The speed is a little slower than the new wheelbows, but much the same as the older compounds. Awesome, but is it "traditional"?
 Now to arrows.
 Here we go again with carbon---they shoot fast and straight, but are they traditional? My opinion is no, they are not. On the other side of the coin the carbons save a lot of trees from being cut down, however not very biodegradeable.

 Any thoughts?

  Jeff

[buck-tamer00]

I THINK TRADITIONAL IS THE WAY THE PERSON HUNTS USING ONLY A STICK AND STRING AND PURE INSTINCT, FROM WHAT I NOTICED, I THINK TODAYS  EQUIPMENT IS JUST  DURABLE, YOU KNOW, JUST MADE TO LAST A LONG TIME. DOESNT CHANGE HOW THE PERSON HUNTS.

[Dick in Seattle]

Gee I get to go first!   I have said it before and I will again... traditional is not the equipment... it is the attitude!   It's deciding what level of technology, other than the very latest, you personally want to shoot at, and then holding yourself to that level, deliberately, to see how well you can do with the equipment people at that time - which you chose! - were able to do.    

Traditional is not comparing my longbow to yours and saying one is trad because it is only wood and the other is not because it has fiberglass.   Or a recurve to a longbow.   It's the idea of you choosing to limit your equipment and then see whether you can master it, within that limitation.  Meantime, I'm trying to master whatever level I have chosen.  Yours may be selfbow, wood arrows and flint, while mine is longbows of circa 1970.   Doesn't matter... may we both be successful.

Traditional is not choosing a period and then deliberately finding the most advanced, esoteric piece of equipment in that period and saying, "well, this existed then, so it's OK".   No, it's using the typical equipment of that period.  

My favorite example... muzzle loading.  If you choose to shoot a muzzle loader for traditionalism, you know that means a patched round ball and open sights.   You don't don't have to ask if bolt action and primer ignition are traditional... in your heart you know.

It's the same here, or should be.   My traditional may not be yours, but if I'm trying to hold myself to a period and I'm true to that , I'm traditional.   I don't have to put you or your equipment down, because only you can decide if you, and it, are traditional within the bounds you have set.

Again, it should be an attitude, not a fight about equipment.

OK, let the arguments begin, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that 90% of them will be about specific arrows or bows other items of equipment and completely miss the point that as soon as you try to regulate "things", you've lost.  Someone will develop something you forgot to regulate tomorrow.  Meanwhile, you've admitted that the people your regulating don't understand the spirit of what you're doing and are more worried about what the other guy is doing than what they are.   One of the reasons I never keep score....

Dick in Seattle

[R H Clark]

Traditional to me is more of an attitude than a choice of equipment.It is slowing down and getting back to basics.Getting down on the ground with an animal one on one and close.Being respectful of the land and the animal hunted.Finding personal satisfaction in a great shot because it took a lot of time and effort to be able to make it. I like to think Traditional people are people you can trust. Men and women that keep their word and are eager to help anyone who needs it.If you start to very narrowly define Traditional no one really is. We drive our trucks,wear high tech clothes,use enginered scents,and eat artificial food while hunting Traditional.We really can't go back in time but we can make a better future.

[R H Clark]

Dick,I could get along with you just fine and I was first when I started my two finger typing.

[DesertDude]

Opening a big "Can-O-Worms" but this subject has hit a nerve with me.

Websters def of: "Traditional"
The handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction.

How far do we go back?   So, Because a person doesn't shoot wood he or she is not Traditional? Take off those Plastic nocks, better Harvest your own Feathers,(no modern store bought ones) tie/wrap them on...No glue, better knap your own points.  Where does it stop? Must we as Archers keep dividing/defining ourselfs? We all love shooting a bow without any wheels. Some enjoy shooting bows they make, some enjoy custom bows that are lookers. some just love the romance of shooting an arrow from a longbow /recurve/ selfbow / modern recurve/hybrid/and the list goes on...

I for one shoot a Recurve, carbon arrows, FF string. I shoot every weekeng with a group of guys shooting longbows with woods, selfbows and cane arrows, wheels and hybrids with metals. No one finds the need to define themselfs.  We are just Archers shooting what we enjoy.  

Mark..........

[Jaeger]

Draw the string with your fingers and hold the full weight of the draw. (no let off) Other than that, who cares? I shoot what I like, you shoot what you like. Metal, wood, carbon, sights, barebow, does it really matter?
I shoot a DAS and I love it. It is probably one of the most technalogically advanced recurves on the market. It is nothing like a compound.
I'll shoot with anyone. Comound to selfbow. It just doesn't matter.
I'm an archer!

[OzarkRamblr]

I don't know what "traditional" is & I don't care. As long as I've got my recurves & my longbow to shoot I'm gonna keep on not carin'.

I don't make wood arrows to be "traditional", I do it 'cause it's fun. I do it 'cause I can make 'em how I want 'em & I do it because when I break a few, I get to make a few more (any way I want, again).

Mostly I do "traditional" my way for me because ultimately it's me I have to please, & it's me who's opinion I have to live with. That being said, I'd shoot with any of you, whatever you shoot as long as you're enjoying it.  

[Dick in Seattle]

I'm having a bad night, so no sleep.  However, I thought up a very simple definition of traditional:

Limiting the technology by which you do something... and then tellling everyone about it on the internet.

Dick

[DannyBows]

I go with the "Attitude" point of view. Limiting yourself, the need to practice more, ability to make much or all of your gear if you want, takes you to a "Deeper" level of archery/bowhunting. I agree that if you pull with your fingers, hold full weight at anchor, it's traditional. Materials have been advancing since the first smart caveman twisted up some sinew, looped it around the ends of a stick, notched a smaller stick and launched it. People have also played around with bow design since day one to get better performance. It all varied from primitive to traditional, until someone put wheels on a bow. That was the day "Modern" began in my opinion. I have no problem with compounds, I shoot an Oneida sometimes, it's all what you like, and what you want from your archery.
  I just reckon we should be happy to be here, sharing a love of slinging arrows, and have so many methods to choose from to get our kicks.
   Dan

[Walter Mauney]

I think it is just archery without the wheels.

[NDTerminator]

As far as tackle goes, IMO no wheels, no sights, full length arrow released by hand off the shelf or a simple elevated rest (But I sure won't condemn a guy who shoots a cushion plunger with his T-300 rest). Arrow type, fletching, or what your bow is made of is irrelevant...

It's more about the attitude/lifestyle than the bow and arrow.  I've never found a group more willing to share and help a newcomer than Traditional Archers...

[Keystone]

When the term was first used, with respect to archery, the intention I think, was to distinguish compound bows from long bows and re curves. That was understood and accepted for until some of us wanted to me more "traditional" than others.  
I think most compound shooters still understand it that way.

"With out wheels" hmmm, I like that. That might have gotten the what, how and why out of our current debates.

[madness522]

Originally posted by Dick in Seattle:
I'm having a bad night, so no sleep.  However, I thought up a very simple definition of traditional:

Limiting the technology by which you do something... and then tellling everyone about it on the internet.

Dick

Sorry your are having a sleepless night Dick!  But I like what your mind came up with as a result.  But it does beg the question....does shooting traditional and using the internet to tell everyone about it make us posers?  Because as we all know when there were no wheel bows Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet.

[fflintlock]

I think Traditional Archery is a way of life, with a little bit of "limited" equipment, or better know as tackle. Down in the dirt and up close hunting, or just a bunch of folks out stump shooting, target shooting and having fun with their tackle. I don't beleive it involves and wheels or pullys, or a bunch of metal hanging off ones bow. Primitive Archery is all handmade tackle, one peice bows with no glass, gut strings selfnock arrows with wrapped feathers. But this too, I beleive falls under Traditional Archery. It's a way of life ! We don't go out and get the fastest and most expensive metal objects to extend our game hunting seasons. I think that's the biggest problem with the wheelie bows, it's just an extension of a trophy hunt. Same as "inlines" vs. "flintlocks". It's a way of life, who we are and how we want to do certain things, the appreciation we have for the form of archery. You hunt with your bow, durring gun season, having a good time of it, just being out there, getting to bag some game is an extra bennifit of the deal, it is one of the reasons we hunt with our longbows or recurves, but it's not the main reason we choose to do so. Tell me the difference in the feeling you get, of hitting a leaf, a pine cone, or even a bullseye with your long bow or recurve, as opposed to shooting a sighted, stablized wheel bow with a mech. release aid, I've done both, there is no comparison at all, none, it's a tottaly different satifaction, it's called "traditional".
 I guess we could all go on and on, but it's just a personal preference of the way one does this, and what he or she gets out of it.

[4runr]

Lol... madness522. That's too good.

[kiiwosewinini]

I am with you all      Seriously though.  I think the without wheels thing is the best interpretation of "trad" as far as this board seems to go, but for many it might go more or less deep.  For me it has always been doing it in a more traditional (translated to me as historic) way.  Now how "Historical"  (my friends and family translate this as "Hysterical")do you go.  

People here have used the muzzleloader as a comparison.  Is percussion cap historic enought??  Flintlock??  Matchlock??  It all depends on the person, but ulitmately they are all fun and more of a challednge than something a bit more "modern".  

An Ojibwe friend of mine and I were once dicussing hunting, camo, modern calls, gadgets, and etc. and he made a good point.  He said that you can hunt without all that stuff.  When you use it, it makes hunting easier but also becomes a crutch.  The more you use the new tech. the more you lose the skills it takes to hunt without it. On another level... fancy gadgets can make an okay hunter have a better chance at hunting, but not using the gadgets will make an okay hunter a better hunter.

 

[bjk]

IMO -- hunting seasons aren't long enough.

[Guru]

Brian, I couldn't agree more          

[paleFace]

this debate will most likely still be raging many years from now.  some may consider me traditional some may not. i use a custom longbow & recurve to hunt. i use wood, aluminum and carbon arrows. i hunt hard the way that feels right for me. i don't look down my nose at anyone who hunts with a compound or even a firearm for that matter.  what matters is the love for the outdoors, wild places and the wild critters that live there. show those things repsect and honor and i don't really care what weapon one chooses. be a slob and i have no use for em. like my dad has always said, it doesn't matter what you do, just be the best at it that you can. so whatever you hunt with, be the best you can with it.