Hill Handshock

[Jeff Strubberg]

And what Pete and I have tried to point out is that finding ways to avoid the handshock a bow has is not the same thing as saying the bow doesn't have any handshock.

It's not a matter of shooting correctly, it's modifying your shooting form to make allowances for a bow that kicks.

If you like Hill style bows, more power to ya!  Don't make them out to be something they aren't, though.

[Pete W]

Originally posted by Swamp Pygmy:
my point is why would you shoot them in a death grip? It's simply not how you shoot them. It's kind of a silly analogy. Knives are unpleasant if you hold them at the wrong end too.

The question I'm answering is not a pyshics question about whether they have handshock. All bows have handshock to some degree logically. The power of the limbs slamming to an abrupt stop is going to continue down to the handle. That is physics.

  The question is do you experience handshock from a hill bow. I take that to literally mean if my hand is feeling shock. My hand does NOT experience shock when held correctly. Therefore my bow does not have handshock.

Holding it incorrectly, much like holding many different things incorrectly, can lead to you becoming hurt.  

If the question is does a straight limbed longbow with a tiny riser shoot with more vibration then a recurve or other design that is reflex deflexed and has a large heavy riser section I'd say that is fairly obvious without a video demonstration.

I didn't take the question to be one of physics, I took it to mean does your hand hurt from a hill bow. And the answer is not if you shoot them correctly.

I said it that way because you CAN'T  do it with a Hill. The pain will break you down before you finish.

 I know you don't normaly shoot that way,but something needs to get people out of Denial.
 If you like them thats fine, many people love them, but some people spend good money after listening to the people that swear there is no shock and they are very upset when they shoot them.
 Just be honest, they have shock, and you have a way to reduce how it is felt by the way you hold it.
 Then the new to be owner isn't surprised and dissapointed when he gets one.

Pete

[Ghost Dog]

I think the real question is about expectation and adaptation.

If you have shot longbows with very efficiently designed limbs, in other words limbs in combination with heavier risers that express the optimal potential energy delivered to the arrow, and then you shoot one of many versions of a straight limbed bow with a lighter mass riser, you will feel excess energy not delivered to the arrow in your hand, arm and shoulder. There are ways to minimize the  recoil with a heavier arrow and a firm grip, but there is no way to eliminate it.

A lot of archers shoot straight limbed bows with great accuracy. In fact many archers shoot straight limbed bows(which more often than not have slight back-set or follow the string) better than they shoot reflex/deflex designs. Is it adaptation, or expectation, or just a matter of being used to a certain design?

There are some great Hill style bows, and Hill style inspired bows out there. With all the experimentation that Howard Hill did with bow design throughout his lifetime, I wonder what he would have come up with if he had continued his bow experiments knowing what bowyers know today? The longbow has been around a long time, and it is still being refined and improved upon. And yet, having said that, a fine Hill style bow in the hands of someone who loves it is a mighty weapon with a noble history, and history is vitally important aspect of traditional archery.

[Ben Maher]

they sure do look cool though....  ben

[Ben Maher]

they sure do look cool though....  ben

[Ghost Dog]

One thing more; some archers are very sensitive to hand shock, and some are not. That is a fact. If a Hill bow has too much hand shock for someone, there are a lot of alternative bow designs that minimize the "shock", but for those archers who are not sensitive to it, all the better for them. There is something very satisfying about shooting a Hill longbow, and shooting it well. The simple lines, the glassy smooth draw, and the easy release are hallmarks of a fine Hill longbow, and not to be missed.

[Orion]

Right on Swamp Pigmy.  It seems that those who find Hills kick a lot just have a shooting style that's not amenable to shooting straight limbed (and perhaps low-wrist) bows.  I certainly don't change my shooting style, grip or anything else when I shoot my Hills.  Often, I'll have a Hill and my ACS in my basement shooting range at the same time and switch off between them.  Definitely different riser, grip, limb styles, etc.  I don't put a death grip on either.  Yes, the ACS has less hand shock than the Hill, but there's not enough shock in the Hill to be even mildly uncomfortable.  In truth, I don't notice it.  As I said earlier, I've shot a number of mild r/d bows that have more felt hand shock for me.  For those who've never tried it, a fast flite string reduces hand shock quite a bit, regardless of the bow being shot.  Conversely, dacron contributes to hand shock.  Just physics as Swamp Pygmy has already explained.

[Sam McMichael]

I've been shooting my Wesley Special for several years and love it.  It's smooth to draw, quiet, and hand shock has never been a problem. I wish i could afford a couple more.

[GingivitisKahn]

I love threads like this one - good divergent opinions and so forth.  It's nice to have a site like this one where such a conversation doesn't degrade into flaming and so forth.

I have to admit - I giggle when I read the posts that say 'well if you hold the HH bow then it kicks'.  Heh.  I'm guessing most tools perform in an unsatisfactory fashion if you use them incorrectly.  That really doesn't prove anything.  If I turn my keyboard upside down, I get gibberish (even more than normal) but that hardly points to a defect in my keyboard.

[Orion]

[bayoulongbowman]

Most archer go through the Hill bow stage at one time or another , its one of the good things about traditional archery . I think the Hill style design is most appreicated for most archers at a 66 inch length bow, just my opinion , dont over bow yourself and it can be some darn good fun!!Peace..and Happy New year walking with your bow in 2009!!!    Marco #78

[Daddy Bear]

The sweet spot for pressure from your bow hand grip is a bit different on a straight handle Hill when compared to a high wrist pistol grip bow. If you attempt to shoot the Hill like a recurve, you'll not get enough action out of the lower limb which will cause the limbs to return out of time. This can bite you pretty hard, but this handshock is induced by the improper grip and operator error. This bite and handshock does not exist when the bow is gripped properly because the limbs will then return in proper time. When the bow is in time, feedback to the archer is that of smoothness which when combined with the lightness and stability of the longbow creates an overwhelming smile upon the archers face:)

[TSP]

Daddy B. described it well.

Its amusing to see these 'incredible handshock' theories about Hill-style bows used as pure fact. The same thing happens with many simple forms of learning.  Some folks will swear the broom won't sweep until someone suggests holding it with the bristles down.  And then, some still won't learn.

ANY well-made bow (or broom) can be operated  comfortably and effectively if the design and inherent 'use characteristics' are taken into account.  If applied with common sense the horrible handshock theory often applied to straight-limbed bows is reduced to what it really is... sillyness.  It's fun to test ideas and debate theories.  But at the point that biased theory starts to insult reality, the latter based on the shooter's actual use and enjoyment of the 'test device'...well then it just becomes annoying.

In a nutshell, any bow has 'shock' if you THINK it does, and it WILL be uncomfortable to shoot if you don't use it the way it was designed to be used.  I don't know how else to put it.

BTW, I shoot Hills, Shrews, Morrisons, Widows, many of the so-called 'low handshock' brands.  I've also had chronic bow shoulder problems in the past, mostly back in my 'recurves are tops' days.  Today I shoot a Hill more than any of my other bows...with FEWER physical problems than I've EVER had before.  When it comes to archery-related ailments there's something to be said for rhythmic style (and not holding at full draw until the cows come home).  

So, don't pay heed to the naysayers.  Try one before you decide that Hills are handshockers, and by all means LEARN HOW TO SHOOT THEM PROPERLY before deciding one way or t'other.  Let the proof be in your own pudding, not in some else's store-bought recipe.

[donw]

i never owned/shot a "hill" longbow...but i have owned (and still own and shoot an abbott and a howatt bushmaster) and a bear montana. all are great bows. it was poundage issues that caused me to trade off the montana, NOT "handshock".

i do plan on a real "howard hill" bow this year if all goes well.

IMO, the most influencing factors is poundage coupled with brace heigth (or should i say fistmele?     )

another factor that can greatly reduce "handshock" is the installation of a slide-on/strap-on bowquiver...

i've never let "handshock", whatever it's supposed to be, deter me from a well shooting bow.

i use fastflite, flemish twist strings with "string puffs", find the correct brace height in them; the result is a pleasant "thump"...

like someone earlier says: "that's why they make choclate and vanilla"...