I Have a Question......a few to follow(more ?? pgs. 4,6,7)and final question pg. 9

[jimmerc]

I wasn't going to get into the broadhead thing on here, But i do agree that a wider two blade or multi blade head is better for these reasons! We do want to create as much tisue damage as possible and get as much penatration as possiable with every shot!! As bowhunters we need to acheive the best accury from our equiptment we can get!! I like to shoot heavy heads up front(175 to 200grns) on ceaders with out it costing me a small fortune!! I have both grizzlys 190s and snuffers but i need to find away to add weight to the snuffers and still glue them on! The grizzlys haven't failed me yet but yes they are a bit narrower than i like!! Curt great stuff here!!

[ishiwannabe]

My biology teacher in highschool was always going on and on about surface area and its relation to speed. A bigger flame heats faster than a smaller one. A bigger flame on a bigger pan, heats faster than a bigger flame on a smaller one. So on and so forth. That logic can apply here too. Bigger BH, bigger cuts/holes equates to more blood.
However, IMHO, unless you make your own BHs and are shooting something WIDER than 2 inches, I doubt very much a NOTICABLE difference could be observed amoung the manufactured BHs. BHs are a compromise between accuracy and cutting ability. Too big of a blade, and they plane. Too small of a blade, well you get the idea.
Marginal hits, no matter which is used, are still marginal hits. I think it is a better idea to practice, practice, practice...to the point where there is less of a chance of marginal hits, than it is to bang your head against a wall as to which design is best.

I like how ya did that though Curt.  

[TradOnly]

I'm somewhat new to bowhunting.  I'm learning from you guys everyday, good and bad.  It's my understanding that one wants as much blood on the ground as possible.  That would mean hitting the most blood filled organ and putting two large holes in the animal.  The holes would have to be large enough so that fat doesn't limit the blood loss.  You also want as much internall tissue damage as possible to cause massive blood loss.  You also want a high percentage shot that causes a "miss" to do the same amount of damage.  To me that translates to (Tree stand)a high angle shot through the ribs, tight behind the shoulder, towards the heart and out through the off side shoulder.  (Ground)Wide blade an inch or two behind the shoulder and an inch or two above. A miss left takes out the shoulder and heart.  A miss right takes out the lungs, and miss high hits the lungs and possibly the spine. So, why do we go for the ribs and risk the area gut and a lost animal?  I'm just trying to become a better predator.

[SteveB]

Great thread Curt - and well done!
 
Such an obvious premise, I'm surprized no one has put it out before now.

Steve

[TradOnly]

On another note, I've only hit one deer.  Low through the ribs, two holes with a two blade.  Waited and tracked, didn't find him.  Dog tracked the next morning and never found him.  Bubbles in the blood but no deer.  I've been kicking my a$$ everyday since to become as accurate as I can.  Now I need to know, just where do I put the arrow?

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

TradOnly,

"Now I need to know, just where do I put the arrow?"

Probably low through one lung. The previously-mentioned buddy of mine did that last Saturday evening with a 2"-cut 3-blade head. We tracked the deer over a half mile through the snow before we found her. Had there not been snow on the ground, the trail may have ended differently.

[TradOnly]

So, we have established high is better than low and forward better than back.  What about point of aim (where you would like the arrow to hit)and angle of entry?

[Molson]

TradOnly-

Here's a doe I shot back in November.  The hit was as far back as you'd want for the angle that was slightly quartering away. The hit was all liver just catching the far lung on the way out. Move that hole forward by about the length of that beautifully handcrafted, osage handled, Doug Campbell Skinner and you have your aiming point.  That will give you the greatest margin of error, either  low, high, forward, or back. She went 57 yds total. I gave her 4 hours before I went after her just to be sure.

   

[TradOnly]

Behind the shoulder with the fore-leg forward, broadside to slightly quartering away, halfway up from white fur.  Sound right?

[TradOnly]

By the way, that is a beautiful knife.

[outbackbowhunter]

Originally posted by Pruneemac:
 

Hope this helps.

I would suggest people take a little time to "post mortem" their dead game.

See where the vitals actually are, where they hit, what damage the arrow did and how could they do it better next time.

Sharp and placement are key to succes.

Pruneemac, I have some problems with anatomy drawings, as shot placement guides, I would consider the heart a little bit too far back as shown in your example.

I am a believer of shooting "the triangle"

Dead centre of the front leg, one third of the chest height up from the bottom.

I do agree most people aim too far back.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by outbackbowhunter:
I would suggest people take a little time to "post mortem" their dead game.

See where the vitals actually are, where they hit, what damage the arrow did and how could they do it better next time.

Sharp and placement are key to success.

 

Excellent observation. Another thing I've noticed over the years is folks who butcher their own game seem to have a better sense the animal's bone structure. Not to knock anyone, but I've known a lot of people who've killed numerous deer and never realized that the front leg and shoulder blade form more of a question mark than an exclamation point. They also didn’t know that the spine angles down as you approach the shoulder and neck region.

[TradOnly]

Thanks for the post.  I don't think I've ever seen this picture.

[Terry Green]

Tradonly,

No, I don't think we have established forward is better than back......I sure didn't see any establishment of that.  If the animal ducks on a foward shot, it drops the shoulder blade  right down where the arrow will be at impact.  Also, you said 'taking out the shoulder'......there is no guarantee of that.  Arrows are not bullets.

[Stone Knife]

This is a four blade hit, my first with bleeders I like the results on the two deer I shot this season with them, I'm not certain that my lightweight set up of 45# would get good results with a three blade or not. This is a great thread it goes along with the way I have been thinking all along    
   

[Bonebuster]

Eight pages and still going. Everyone trying to learn how to be the best we can be, as bowhunters.

Without a doubt...of all the skills necessary for consistently successfull bowhunting, PATIENCE is number one.

Patience in keeping at it until you get a shot.
Patience in waiting for the RIGHT shot.
Patience (when necessary) AFTER the shot.

I would truely love to sit around a campfire, face to face, with the bowhunters on here.

Eight pages and still going...awesome thread.

[TradOnly]

Terry, I'm trying to find that "spot" that everyone tells you to concentrate on.  Within 15 yards I can hit within 2" of where I want to hit.  Of course, that's if I can control my nerves and if I can actually concentrate on said spot.

Stone Knife, where exactly on the deer is that bubbling hole you have a picture of.

Bonebuster, i know exactly what you mean.

[Terry Green]

Trad,....look at the diagram provided.

That is about THE best place to aim if you are shooting at a deer broadside. ...If the deer drops, you have accounted for the room over as you are aiming at the lower 1/3rd of the vitals...and it will likely drop to some degree...and if it don't move, then you are good to go....if you are a couple of inches low, you still get the heart if it don't move...and if it does, your right in the middle of the goodies still.

Also, if that deer drops and wheels away, you are still in good shape.  Study the diagram.

[TradOnly]

Thanks a lot me bruddas.  You guys are the best of the best.

[ChuckC]

Terry, I am thinking that the shoulder blade doesn't drop anywhere, unless you are meaning the whole body drops, putting the shoulder blade on line with the position you were aiming at.

The shoulder blade is forward and high and unless you are shooting from above and quartering toward, probably should not be impacted by your hit. If it was gonna be in a kill area it should be rearward of the shoulder blade.  

As stated in the past,  I wonder if most people are aiming behind the elbow and stating that they are aiming behind the shoulder.  This certainly corresponds with what I am shown repeatedly during Hunter Ed classes.  

From what I have seen in the past (experience) if you hit very far behind the elbow, you will likely miss lungs entirely.  

Aiming above the elbow gives you a great clear path thru both lungs and the top of the heart, however if you hit a bit low, you encounter the leg bones which can stop a broadhead.  Also, if the deer jumps the string, it can drop down to the point where you hit too high.

Unless you are using a rifle, or shooting at a frozen deer,  there is no perfect placement, due to all kinds of factors, most of which are outside our control.   "Do the best you can" is all we can do.


ChuckC