I Have a Question......a few to follow(more ?? pgs. 4,6,7)and final question pg. 9

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by TradOnly:
I'm trying to find that "spot" that everyone tells you to concentrate on.  

On whitetails, I usually try to aim for a spot that will put the arrow through the middle of the lungs. Out of a treestand at about ten yards on a broadside deer, my arrow should go through the middle of the nearside lung above the center line, and out the middle of the far side lung below the center line.

That "spot" you're seeking will depend on both the angle of the deer and how you are above or below the animal. Automatically shooting for a specific spot on deer no matter the angle can get you into a pile of trouble.

[Bill Carlsen]

To answer the second question....an undisturbed deer (or  bear for that matter) will almost always step foward from what i have seen. Deer that I have seen that have stepped backwards were always on alert for some reason. I won't take that shot. This year, for example, I had a very large doe I have been after for two years approach my stand. She stopped about 20 yards from where I intended to take the shot. She was suspicious and for about  1/2 hour she circled and walked away, came back and did it all over again several times. She was nervous and she made me nervous. At one point I had her at about 10 yards broadside but I was already dealing with a stress headache and she seemed to be, as well. I let her walk. I had that uncomfortable feeling that shooting at her would result in a poor hit or a miss which would give me an educated deer. She never seemed to give any indication that she knew I was there...but I let her walk...and I am glad I did.  She left by taking her first step backwards.

By the way, big broadheads, mutilple blades, single blade, double bevel, single bevel...none of it matters  a wit if they are not really, really sharp and straight shooting.

As I think about this thread I have to go back and agree with Sharpster. When hunting from treestands that are over 12 feet up I tend to shoot too high. This has resulted in about 6 spine shot deer and probably double on clean misses and a number of shoulder hits that resulted in minimal penetration. On one deer I hit high a muzzle loader got him and I was there when he dragged it out. There was a lump on his top, left shoulder. At the butcher's they recovered my Woodsman and about 2" of arrow shaft. It was lodged in the heavy bone and muscle of the upper back, just over the shoulder area. It had been 6 weeks since I shot him and he showed no sign that he had been wounded and the bh and shaft were covered with scar tissue with no infection.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

.

[Guru]

[bowhunterfrompast]

Guru great thread. A lot of great info put out on this one.

[joe skipp]

Now that the topic seems shot placement, I've always counted 7 ribs back from the front shoulder. As a NYS Bowhunter Instructor, the Whitetail Skeletal photos, similiar to what Curt last posted, you can count 7 ribs back and that puts you in the lung area.

Always aiming slightly lower will put your arrow right in the vitals as we know most whitetails react by dropping. As I stated earlier, most of my shots are quartering away so 8 ribs back allows me to take out all vitals. Studying the skeletal structure, then visualizing that area on a live deer when your about to loose the arrow should result in a decent hit.

[Killdeer]

You can count the ribs under the hide on a deer in the woods? I don't count all that well, especially when I am counting things that are alike, like fence pickets. I find it easier to listen for the heart and aim there.

Killdeer  

[Stone Knife]

Stone Knife, where exactly on the deer is that bubbling hole you have a picture of.

Right here  
   

[Steve O]

Jason is absolutely correct.  You have to visualize the path of the arrow thru the deer and almost aim for the exit hole.  KEY point.

I started reading after page seven   :D

[Guru]

Lets get back to where we were headed .......

These are a given, no matter what BH you shoot an animal with....
 1)Sharp, sharp bh.
 2)Shot placement
 3)Elapsed time after the shot
 4)Patience while tracking

Some guys on this thread keep throwing these out there...but what we're really trying to talk about is.......

We've established, in the event that you don't hit where you're trying too...you are...for several reasons...overwhelmingly more likely to hit an animal "too far back"..I'll even include "high and back".   OK now my last question....

Why, Why, Why the trend towards NARROW broadheads?

Especially narrow, 7/8" two bladers....


If shooting "dangerous game"...equipment that is boarder line adequate...or "Big" big game(moose,big boar hogs,maybe elk),where penetration could be a factor simply because the way an animal is built, then I could see cause for some concern in the amount of penetration.

Once a bh goes out the other side of a critter, it's job is done!It's done all it can do! It really matters not it if it barely makes it out, or is sticking into the dirt 8"....it doesn't matter!

But for everyday type, the kind of hunting that 95 percent of us are doing on a regular day to day basis, aren't we better off shooting a big, and even better, multi bl. broadhead?????

[TradOnly]

Good question.  For a time I was using the Sasquatch.  It had great flight for a BIG broadhead.  I would still be using them if it were not for one thing.  I shot one into a layered foam target and the blade broke at the weld.

I, too, moved to the narrow head.  I now use the No Mercy but I'm looking to change to a non-vented 3-blade.

[overbo]

IMO as I stated earlier,narrow heads are far easier to get good flight w/.If one can tune their equiptment to shoot a 160gr SNUFFER(and yes I'm on that snuffer kick again) and shoot 1 deer in the ribcage,I beleive thats the head they would use from that point on for deer.I've taken deer w/ 50lbs @ 26 1/2'' draw shooting snuffers and the arro goes right thru them.Most Whitetail shots are under 25yrds and a bow of this weght tuned well will send massive heads thru deer.Been there done that  .The key is tunning and enough arro weight.Just MO

[Widowbender]

Too far back, I think in my experience because the critter moved or I wasn't paying attention to the shot angle.
I have never lost a deer that I hit back... never gut shot but a two or three...most back hits were liver area.
Most of the deer that I have helped track, that weren't found, were either hit too far back or too high.
For deer and turkey that's why I like a Three blade head (Woodsman). In my experience a massive wound channel is a good thing.
All deer that moved on me as the shot was loosing (not because of shot reaction) either moved forward or turned.
I always try to think about where the arrow will exit on the animal... this really helps with the shot angle (when I remember to do it).
I shoot 3-blade heads because they DO leave better blood trails and I don't see blood the best in the world, so every extra drop
helps... You never know when its gonna be that one drop of blood that helps find a critter. This is what works for me, but I can see
where a smaller head might help if you're shootin a marginal setup as far as poundage and arrow weight goes.

David

[L82HUNT]

Woodsman   Zwickey   Silverflame   Razorhead    Muzzy   Thunderhead    Montec   Treeshark


  Ive taken a deer with all these heads they all work.  But most heads do have a trade off.  

#1
 A 250lb plus whitetail walks at 12 yards under your tree.  Your are 20 ft up and the deer is down in a ditch making it even father down hill.  At this angle you must hit high to get a low exit. As you release the deer takes a step and you hit  "HIGH AND BACK"  the big snuffer hits the large muscle in the deers back and even your well tuned arrow slows down and does not get all the way thru. (This has happened to me and I know I'm not the only one.)  No exit hole.  The narrow head goes all the way thru, and the low exit wound makes one heck of a blood trail.

#2  
  As your stalking a woodlot, large deer 2 comes down a path not 15 yards away.  You draw and the deer catches movement you rush the shot and hit it to far back.  Your narrow 2 blade goes thru the deer so quick.  But just goes by the liver as it rotates going thru the body.  At the best you find the deer.  The big snuffer has 2 of its 3 blades hit the liver makes a big hole, you give it 4 hours and you trail it for 300 yards and find it.


  Trade offs. As for me the best blood trail I have ever seen was from a Silverflame.  At a 1 1/8 it is not "narrow" but it is a 2 blade.  But I quess this is just what ifs.  And anyone that has taken there share of deer with a tradbow must realize my point.  Even if they dont agree.  

[Joseph]

Bigger is better when it comes to broadheads and North American hunting.  Dr. Ashby's research is very good and his results are relevant if you are hunting dangerous game or really heavy boned animals.  Even when I was in Africa hunting plains game I would have been fine shooting a Snuffer 160.  Even on my Eland it would have worked and a 4 blade broadhead wasn't a liability on the hog I shot in Australia mudcaked fighting shield and all.  Now if I was after Oz Buff or Cape Buff I would go the whole nine yards of narrow, single bevel, weight forward arrows but it is not needed in North America in my opinion.  Joseph

[Sharpster]

Originally posted by Guru:
We've established, in the event that you don't hit where you're trying too...you are...for several reasons...overwhelmingly more likely to hit an animal "too far back"..I'll even include "high and back".   OK now my last question....

Why, Why, Why the trend towards NARROW broadheads?

Especially narrow, 7/8" two bladers....

Once a bh goes out the other side of a critter, it's job is done!It's done all it can do! It really matters not it if it barely makes it out, or is sticking into the dirt 8"....it doesn't matter!

But for everyday type, the kind of hunting that 95 percent of us are doing on a regular day to day basis, aren't we better off shooting a big, and even better, multi bl. broadhead?????

Guru,

For me, the answer to why, why, why? is  accuracy I just consistantly get better groups with two blade heads than I do with multi-blades regardless of broadhead brand or bow/arrow set-up. It's my goal to not make that high/back hit in the first place.

Respectfully, I think it does make a difference if the arrow does continue through the deer and into the dirt. I've always have had the best blood trails with "complete" pass throughs.

While we were back at question two, there were a few guys who stated they got no bloodtrails at all on "back" hits even with muti-blades, so I don't think the premise that muti-blades leave better bloodtrails on any type of hit has been decidedly proven yet. Too many other variables for a set in stone conclusion.

Ron

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Guru,

Because it works.

When someone asks me why I shoot 500-grain arrows instead of 650-grain ones, my answer is:

Because it works.

When the guy at the local bow shop grills me about my use of a recurve and small broadheads instead of a BowTech with Rocket Hammerheads (huge mechanicals), I simply respond with:

Because it works.

When I'm questioned about why my arrows have normal adapters instead of steel ones for EFOC, standard fletching and no little pieces of pin striping wrapped around the shafts in front of the feathers...

Because it works.

I suppose the next question down the pike will be why my bowstrings have 12 strands of Dyna 97 instead of only 4 or 6. Let me think for a minute…

Because it works.

Why in the face of Ashby's excellent work do my broadheads still have two bevels instead of one?

Because it works.

In years past I’ve hunted with 4-blade heads from Zwickey and Zephyr, 3-blade Woodsmans and Thunderheads, and a pile of others. Why?

Because it works.

So to answer you question, “Why, Why, Why the trend towards NARROW broadheads?”

Why?

Because it works.

[Molson]

Oh come on now. Joe isn't saying he counts ribs on live deer.  He's saying count the ribs on the diagram Curt posted then visualize that location on a deer.

Reading comprehension fellas!

[jimmerc]

I haven't seen any 7/8 heads yet and really don't care to! My griz elgrande 190s are 1&3/16s scary sharp and leave increditable blood,as do my snuffers, asdo my magnus journy men, as do my ribteks! I can see if a high back hit,you would want a wide two blade or even better 3 blade as just an 1/8 inch more width could mean hitting the main aritery that runs just under the spine to the back or not/ a two blade could hit blades horzontal to this where a three blade ups the chances of catching it! other than that a bad hit in the guts is a bad hit in the guts/you may or maynot find this deer!! just my .02

[Shaun]

I like big broad heads. To quote from The Den of the Old Bowhunter book, "We made our heavy bows heavy and our broad heads broad."

I like Ace (the big 175 & 200), Magnus I, and Snuffers.

Best shot placement on broadside deer (and hogs) is just above the front leg - not the crease behind the leg. Look again at Guru's excellent diagram. If you hit back of this point, you are still in the lungs. Tree stand and quartering shots I try to imagine the lung area and aim for the middle. I don't take straight down or very steep angle shots from above because of bad experiences with this shot angle. If this is the only shot presented, I'll wait.

See you in a few days Curt.