I Have a Question......a few to follow(more ?? pgs. 4,6,7)and final question pg. 9

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by Molson:
  Recovering an animal hit too far back has nothing to do with broadhead choice and everything to do with how you follow up the animal. You can't create the kind of massive tissue damage needed to make a difference with a broadhead.

Molson...I have always enjoyed your posts, but I could not disagree more with those two statements.

Happy Holidays sir!

[Doc Nock]

Originally posted by Molson:
 

Everyone fears the shoulder hit because there is no penetration.  Without penetration nothing vital is hit.  

Perhaps if their set up were more capable of achieving penetration on heavy bone, folks wouldn't be so apt to shoot far back to avoid the shoulder.

Condensed to highlight...but boy..mouthful was said right there...

I like what the single bevel matched with the same helical feather does in tissue causing the turning S shape... and the tanto tip for getting better penetration if it is near something hard.

Now to wait for Sharpster to get some ready for us nummies who couldn't re-do a head to save our souls!  

[Molson]

Just thought I'd provide a different point of view.  I love them big ol' Snuffer 160's too, but I still want to give them lots of time before I go after them if I hit far back.  

My hunting partner and I switched to using only the Griz 190 and 160 this year to try it out. Efoc, carbon, blah blah blah and I really can't say yet that we've seen a great difference. I'm still killing deer and he's still shooting over their backs. (We won't talk about pigs    :rolleyes:   )   :D   But now that he got a super sweet Filson vest for Christmas        he's gonna look a lot better than me while we're out there doing it!

In the end, there ain't no one way. Everyone likes what they like and it all works most times and doesn't work sometimes.  Just do your best to hit them where you should and do all you can to recover them when you don't.

[pdk25]

You still going to Ray's with the Griz broadheads, Tim.

[Bill Carlsen]

I like multiple blade heads simply because in all my years of bowhunting I have recovered all but one of the deer I hit "too far back". Shots into the shoulder with a multiple blade head simply stop right there. I have seen many animals harvested only to find that they had been previously shot with bh's in the shoulder and without apparent harm. I'de rather hit them in the shoulder with a head that will not kill them than one that might. Shoulder hits that go unrecovered, it seems to me, survive. Animals hit too far back with more cutting blades have a much better and quicker chance of recovery than those shot with single blade heads. Just my opinion based on my experience....and, it seems to make sense.

[John3]

In over 20 years chasing stuff with a bow I've only had one shot on game that was too far back. Deflection off of something between me and the deer. I thought liver almost instantly and let the deer go lay up for almost three hours. The Zwickey did its job perfectly. I think the deer was stone dead before I got back to the truck.

My poor shots have always been either high or low, not left or right.  Most of my misses are usually too low (under the game)...

[Molson]

Yeah Pat. Can't wait to get down there and hunt with you and Barry again. I like the Griz a lot. Definitely sticking with it.

[ron w]

Maybe part of preparing for the worst case is waiting a bit longer for the best shot. I think we all agree sharp braodheads and shot placement are the most important issues, so maybe just a bit more thought before the shot. I know its hard when the shot seems to be there. Just some food for thought.

[lt-m-grow]

I am kinda surprised with the path this took.  I am with JDS3 on this.  

I watched the question and thought, what is too far back mean. I shot the animal, it died.  I recovered it. Is that too far back?  I don't think so.  I have never lost an animal that I shoot towards the rear.  I know that means some luck was involved but the outcome was positive.

Now, the ones that "got away" were hit too high.  I cannot conclude that a snuffer nor a single bevel would have made a difference there.  So maybe the arguement of "fear of being too close to the shoulder"holds some water.

[tradtusker]

kinda been thinking about where this was going, i like big heads and shoot snuffers and magnus 1s as a nice wide two blade.

from what iv read some would rather shoot a big multi blade head so that in the event of a hit "too far back" there is more damage and therefore more chance of killing and recovering the deer, but when hit "too far forward" it will/may not penetrate the shoulder and therefore more chance of not recovering the deer? ?

on the other hand some will shoot a small two blade so that in the event of a shoulder hit "too far forward" it is likely/possible that it penetrates far enough to kill the animal but run the risk on a hit "too far back" of not causing  enough damage and risk loosing the animal? ?

interesting both have there advantages and disadvantages however as Curt shown through the answers from his first question that we believe it more likely to be a "too far back" hit.  

of course there are countless variables and different reasons why people use small diameter 2 blades and why some use bigger multi blades.

 like your thinking Curt.

[Fritz]

Yep, I try to prepare for "massive tissue damage" by shooting razor sharp Woodsmans.  They have definitely made the difference between recovering or not recovering several deer IMO.

[overbo]

Sounds like a job for SUPER 160GR SNUFFER!!!

[Shawn Leonard]

I would say back, but for me I would say forward. I for some reason like that forward shot, that shoulder is there to protect the goodies and I know it.Shawn

[Sharpster]

Originally posted by lt-m-grow:
I am kinda surprised with the path this took.  I am with JDS3 on this.  

I watched the question and thought, what is too far back mean. I shot the animal, it died.  I recovered it. Is that too far back?  I don't think so.  I have never lost an animal that I shoot towards the rear.  I know that means some luck was involved but the outcome was positive.

Now, the ones that "got away" were hit too high.  I cannot conclude that a snuffer nor a single bevel would have made a difference there.  So maybe the arguement of "fear of being too close to the shoulder"holds some water.

No surprise but, I agree entirely. There was no "too high" option in the original question and no reference to lost or recovered animals.

I'm 47 now and have been hunting and tracking deer since I was in grammer school. I sure don't have the numbers of animals under my belt that many here do but I have tracked many bow shot deer over the years. Not just my own but, often helping friends and relatives who had lost the blood on deer they had hit.

Well over 90% of the deer I've seen permanently lost were hit neither too far back nor too far forward. They were all hit too high... and many with multi-blade heads.

The absolute worst shot I personally ever made was a perect bullseye gutshot with the sharpest original Rothar Snuffer you can imagine. I took way too long of a shot at a walking buck and found out instantly exactly how slow an arrow travels.

Fortunately for me, I got a complete pass through and being soooo far from the deer, he didn't realize what had happened. He jumped, took three steps and then stood perfectly still until his front legs buckled 45 minutes later. Gave him another 1/2 hour then aproached... dead.

Now after 45 minutes of standing in that one spot with two huge Snuffer holes in his belly, you'd think that there would be some blood on the ground but aside from two small splashes back where he was standing when the arrow zipped through him, there was not one drop on the ground where he stood stock still for so long.

When I opened him up... oh what a mess. Literally gallons of blood and stomach contense and all sorts of liquid yuk! I have no doubt that if he had run instead of standing there, I would never have recovered him.

Would one more or one less blade have made any difference?... Don't think so. Above all else, it's shot placement, pass through shots, and crazy sharp broadheads that influence blood trail quality and quantity.

The biggest, baddest, and sharpest broadhead in the world will never make up for a bad hit... no matter how many blades it happens to have.

Ron

[ron w]

Like Shawn L. said, that shoulder protects the good stuff,Maybe the best case for that heavy, heavy arrow. Still need that sharp head, but put some weight behind it.

[Guru]

Guys I'm talking about BS shots....not a bad 1/4 towards angle.....Shawn I can't remember you telling me of any un-recovered critters that you hit in the shoulder bud...

For you guys that think you're gonna shoot through shoulder bones.....give us some insight on your set-ups.....

by the way...on the "too far back" thing and what it means.....

lt-um-grow, just because you recovered something,doesn't mean that it was hit right does it? Most animals hit where they're supposed to be hit die within seconds,and are easily recovered. An animal hit "too far back" will most likely die,but sometimes hours or days later....does that make it ok just because you recover the animal?

Got another question......

 In your experience....If you're getting ready to shoot and just about to release, in your opinion, is the animal more likely to step forward or backward?

on another note....this isn't a snuffer thread just 'cause I use them....I'm talking about using big ,multi blade bh's as a whole......

[ron w]

I would say a step forward but also dropping at the same time. Which could give you back and a bit high. Not really a good thing.

[Guru]

I'm not talking about a reaction to your shot, I mean natural movement, just before/as you release?

[rappstar]

this is getting good so i want to play....

i would say the "likely" natural movement would be towards the rear as the deer shifts its weight to the hindquarters to move its front leg forward or backwards.  

answer to the first question is too far back and that my preparation for the worst case scenario isn't a 3 or 4 blade head.

[RC]

Critter will be going forward . I`ve never shot an animal backing up.
   I`m with TG and Guru on this one. BIG broadheads at least for the southern deer and pigs I hunt.I shoot low pounds the last few years due to shoulder problems and wanting to be able to shoot in years to come.I always use heads at least 1 1/2 wide . With the exception of the Muzzy Phantom.Believe it or not I ordered some snuffers before this thread came up.
  The big broadhead will give you a better CHANCE for blood on a "back" shot I would think.I`ve been discussing this point with my local Buds for years.RC