A question for you engineering type bowyers

[doctorbrady]

I must admit that I am intrigued by the ever improving materials and designs available to traditional archers.  The performance of stickbows is always on the upswing as evidenced by bows like the DAS, Black Swan, and Adcock...just to name a few.  
I am not a bowyer (though I want to be when I grow up    )  Looking at the new DAS bows, I was just wondering if anyone else is using prefab high performance limbs (Samick, W&W, Hoyt)on machined or wooden risers to get a "super bow."  Not to take anything away from the innovation of DAS, but it seems that putting prefab limbs on a riser which raises the poundage and performance would be fairly easy to do (I promise I mean no disrespect to DAS).  Is anyone else doing this?  Or are the foam cores that make these limbs so remarkable available to bowyers to use as core matierials in limbs of their own design?  I love the melding of tradition and performance, and I am truly intrigued by the possibilities!

[doctorbrady]

I am surprised not to hear from O.L. or the like.
I have looked at David's (DAS)site since the first post and was amazed at his engineering in regards to the riser of his bows.  Again, I don't want to take anything away from his accomplishments.  I am just curious as to other potential applications.  Brady

[Van/TX]

Hmmm.  Has there really been improvements in limb design/performance with the exception of O.L.'s in the last 50 years that are not specifically for FITA type bows and arrows?  :p      ...Van

[doctorbrady]

Van,
I think so.  O.L.'s design is certainly different...though patented.  The use of carbon and natural materials like superboo have stepped things up considerably, as well.  Design changes have also been made to benefit performance.  Look at the "hybrid" longbows for example.  These bows squarely out perform the old D-style or Hill style longbows of yesteryear.  What I am considering in my question, though, is how the "improvements" in materials by FITA style bow manufacturers who have spent a bunch of money in R&D might benefit traditional bowhunters if applied.  DAS bows are a stunning example of that from what I have heard.  I am just wondering how we might continue to capitalize on that.

[James Wrenn]

The biggest effect has been in better materials to work with.Carbon has been around a while but has really just starting to be used more with bows being designed to use it instead of just as an add on.Better string materials alone has added some of the most improvements.Better glues,strings and material is where the improvements come from.Most bow designs have been built and rebuilt for years and as new stuff comes availible they get a little better.jmo

[ROB TAYLOR]

The constant tweaking and refining of design, combined with the development and availability of newer and better materials has indeed led to an ever heightening of the performance pinnacle.  

I've often wondered the same thing and come to some conclusions for myself.  I'd venture a guess that the most serious limitations to nearly every current trad bowyer's use of the materials mentioned are cost, availability, and even desire.  Many of the systems and materials are proprietary, patent protected (I assume) and backed by "big money"....at least in archery terms.  Others are just not available in sufficient supply and at acceptable quality levels due to price and use in other industries (priority).  And of course, lots of these materials do not appeal to the bowyer or potential customer's sense of aesthetics.

[shapeshifter]

i will be milling my aluminum risered bow here in a week or so. i was so impressed with a buddy's DAS that i am going to build one with my own spin on it (i have a few ideas that i think will make it even more of a sweet shooter as well as offer a little more "variety"). i will however make a set of my own limbs that we have chrony'd against the DAS that significantly out performs the win-ex limbs. i'll post some pics as well as some results when i am finished building it.

[Cutty47]

You know, I don't think most people here realize that carbon foam limbs aren't as fast as the all carbon limbs and many of the carbon maple limbs...Hoyt FX limbs are faster than Hoyt G3's...

Also, in terms of pure speed...there are quite a few recurves out there that will meet or even exceed the performance of Warf/DAS bows...

Ballistic, Border, Palmer, River's Edge, Kwik Stik, Morrison Cheyenne, Black Swan, Adcock...all as fast or faster than Warf/DAS bows...

The HUGE advantage of metal riser ILF limb bows is their lack of hand shock and durability...which allows them to shoot 7-9 grns per pound...

But having shot many styles of metal and wood bows, I think quite a few members here would be surprised at the numbers their wood bows would do if shooting the same grns per pound as the metal ones...

For example...I just saw a chrony result of a #53 River's Edge Recurve shooting 520 arrows at 196-198 fps...that's excellent efficiency for any type of bow.

With my new string, I get 200 fps or slightly over with a 600 grn arrow out of my Palmer...that ain't too shabby...

And I'm sure Shapeshifter's isn't blowing smoke when he says his limbs will outpreform the Win-Ex limbs...pretty well known that ILF limbs leave quite a bit of speed on the table for the sake of durability and torsional stability...

When do I get to order one of your R/D Lb's, Gino?

[doctorbrady]

Shapeshifter,
I look forward to seeing what you come up with, too.  I am intrigued with the possibilities.  I have always been a wood bow man, but the machined aluminum riser bows are just plain cool, especially when they are zipping an arrow at super speeds.  Keep us updated.  Brady

[James Wrenn]

Exactly right Pete. The bottom line is none of the good bows are going to run away from the others.The trick is to get useable performance along with a bow that feels and shoots well.Any bow will shoot over 200fps if you drop arrow weight.Some bows will just still be a pleasure to shoot when you do and won't blow up when you do it for an extended period.That is where the DAS,Adcock and a few others shine.They will take it with out complaining and will still be nice to shoot. jmo

[Cutty47]

James, you mean I might have learned a thing or two from you?

I don't think you can underestimate the importance of a quiet and pleasant shooting bow with lighter arrows...

If you want to be accurate you need to practice...A LOT...and what's comfortable for sixty shots often isn't for 200...

I like speed, probably more than the next guy, but speed is NOT worth an unpleasant shooting experience or a noisy bow...

[Cutty47]

Also, while metal risers are definitely the ticket for guys who prefer a thinner grip, you can get a well behaved speed burner with a nice hunk of dymondwood/phenolic/glass lams...and I think in the near future you'll see many more Custom bowyers including carbon lams in their risers only...

You can get away with a cheaper grade of carbon in the riser because weight isn't an issue...

And riser stiffness will increase performance at a proportionally higher percentage than the use of carbon in recurve limbs (straight limbed longbows are a different story)...

[vermonster13]

The thing witht he FITA limbs that most shop bowyers can't compete with is the budgets behind their development. Target Archery is a huge sport elsewhere in the world and consistency wins the money. So that is what those limbs are developed for.

There are some things on the horizon though that will shake things up again. I think the next big leap in performance is on it's way and it will be from some materials that have never found their way into a limb before. I'm anxiosly awaiting the time of the arrival.

[Buemaker]

I beleive one of the reasons they use a foam core is that it is not as susceptible to temperature changes as some other materials.
If you start shooting in an Olympic competition in the morning and into the afternoon the temperature can chang quite a bit as the sun is warming up.
  Bue--.