??? Interesting Perspective on Wooden Arrows for Heavy Bows ???

[Greyfox54]

LKH I plan on using them on an upcoming Buff hunt in Ben's neck of the woods . And Ben I was wondering where in the Northern Territory you're located  ? I was fortunate enough to win the St. Jude's Buff Hunt with Mick and was wondering if I would be anywhere near you ? Fred

[Benny Nganabbarru]

G'day Fred, I'm at Katherine, which, if you arrive in Darwin and drive out to Mick's happy hunting ground, is on the way. If so, please drop in for a cuppa!

[Don Thomas]

As many of you know, I am ultra non-technical in this regard. If the shaft flies right, I shoot it. With that in mind, I can say the following based on nothing but experience. 1. I have never encountered a reason to shoot anything but wood.2. Wood performs well from heavy bows and at heavy shaft weights. 3. One of the few wood shaft materials I could never get to fly right was Forgewood. 4. If you are looking to add weight for big game with wood, hickory works well for the medium range and ipe can't be beat for the real heavy stuff (shafts over 1000 gr). Cheers, Don

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Don, just as a reference point, could you please tell me your draw weight and length, the point weight, the arrow length from valley of nock to back of point, and the spine of the Ipe you used on your buffalo? I really enjoy watching that shot on the Point Blank film! Thanks, Ben

[magnus]

i recently got some laminated birch shafts from 3 rivers. stained n sealed no fletch 698 grains w 135 head. wide range of weight n spine to choose from straighten fairly easy  and shoot great. bare shaft test only so far but fly like darts. hope this helps fair priced too. good luck!

[Greyfox54]

Ben I would like that , I will e-mail you when time gets near , as I'm not sure about arrival dates yet . My hunt is in June , thanks , Fred

[Old York]

I think Doug Knight has answered Ben's question  very well , if one bothers to read it.

It's not rocket science, it's carrying the simple math of dividing 26" by deflection [or bow weight] through the full ranges, from light weight bows to the heavy weights.

[Benny Nganabbarru]

So, just to sum-up this little mental exercise for those like me who are silly enough to shoot heavy gear:

Once you actually find wooden arrows that are quite stiff (say, over 100# using the old system), they will likely work reasonablly well out of a range of heavy bows or using a range of different weight broadheads. Of course, it'll still pay to play around, but you're well and truly in the ball-park, I think.

Thanks Doug and Tim (Old York sent me an excellent diagram explaining this). Perhaps someone else will be in my situation someday, and this thread might help them.

[Ben Maher]

ben, back when i shot heavy bows ( 70lb and over) i used to find that even with alloys i had to go way over spine to get good accurate flight with heavy broadheads. Don't know why, but the proof was in the 'pudding' so to speak.Can't imagine its that different with woodies. I don't for a minute believe that you were trying to turn this into rocket science, just asking a legitimate question that would be of interest to anyone hunting thick skinned game with appropriate heavy tackle or simply wanting to have a crack at shootin' woodies from a heavy poundage bow. Now go and get me a 'buff and tell me your findings!!! Ben

[Danny Rowan]

Fred, 750gr without heads, I would bet they are either Alaskan Forgewoods or Sweetlands.

Dr Don, wow, could not get forgewoods to fly right??? If I shoot wood it is Forgewoods and I have perfect flight from my 60-65# recurves. The only time I have personally seen forgewoods not fly correctly is if they were trimmed to length from the point end, they have to be trimmed from the nock end cause they were tapered in density, ie the point end was denser than the nock end.

Danny

[O.L. Adcock]

All good stuff guys..What might be driving some of the thinking is a plus or minus 5# for a 50# bow is the same percentage as plus or minus 10# with a 100#..

Doc Ashby has told me hickory has been the toughest wood arrow, beating carbon. But.... footed carbons have been very close in toughness with the brass inserts being the weakest link. Internal footing, not external. The problem with wood is you can't get the needed EFOC and that is as big a factor as the weight itself. IOW, an EFOC at 650-700 grains will out penetrate a 900-1000 "normal" FOC by a lot from the same bow...The best hickory's he's found were tapered and that's no doubt the FOC factor.....O.L.

[George D. Stout]

Oh crap...O.L., now you have a whole bunch of people scratching their heads after they loaded up all of those 900 grain arrows; "OH NO!  IT'S FOC WEIGHT...NOT TOTAL WEIGHT!"  I can see them now trying to get the tips off and pulling all that line out of their carbon tubes.  

 

[hunt it]

Ben, get yourself some Grizzly Stick Alaskan or Safari shafts and never worry again! Load em up front with anything that turns your crank and let the buffalo come.

[O.L. Adcock]

Hunt it, you got it!     They stiff need to be footed inside. Hopefully soon with the Doc's permission I'll do a photo "how to" on footing carbons with high to extreamly high FOC's.

I've been able to get high FOC's in wood arrows and durablity by using a 12-14" 4 point footing up front with a heavy/strong wood like hickory. Cocobolo seems to work well also if the grain is straight. The 4 point footing needs to be staggered, 2 of the foots (feet?) stopping about 3-4" from the other two so there is no sudden weak point where the footing ends. Back half a tapered light wood like POC, spruce, and I haven't tried it but silverwood should be good for that. I drill a 1/8" hole 1.5"-2" deep on the front end then taper for points as normal. In that hole I can now put brass, steel, or even tungsten and add from a few grains to almost 100 for aditional fine tuning adjustment. I do that with super glue and if I want to change from say brass to steel, I just touch a soldering iron to the brass, it turns the super glue to gas and if done right will literally "spit out" the brass so I can put steel or what ever in there. Doing this a fellow can come up with 700-900 grian arrows with FOC's above 20% that are tough as nails. I've only done this on a few as it's a PIA compared to carbons but it works well....O.L.

[Greyfox54]

Danny I don't think they are forgewoods but could be wrong , I fletched them with left wing natural feathers ,2 nat. and one orange barred , I had read that the 190 gr. Grizzlies may be available in left bevel but I don't think that will happen . Now I have to find a heavy glue-on head , I like the ones at Alaskan Bowhunters Supply but think they only come in screw-ons . That said they are around 300 grains which would give me a finished weight over 1000 grains . That's heavy . Fred

[Benny Nganabbarru]

I do have some Grizzlystiks loaded and ready to go.

The thing is, the magic of wood has got hold of me, so I'm trying where possible to use that material.

Thanks for the input, fellows!

[Danny Rowan]

Fred, lots of new single bevel heads out. ABowyer has some new glue ons in heavy weight and left bevel. Check the A&H site. To see if they are the compressed forgewoods, take your thumb nail and try and make a dent in the shaft by running the edge of your nail across the shaft, if it leaves a dent it is not forgewood, if no dent then more than likely they are forgewoods.


Danny

[Greyfox54]

Danny , No dent , I do have stain and sealer with 2 coats of poly on them though . Just don't remember buying forgewoods other than I have a dozen Battleshafts that are a little short for me . I will check out the Abowyer heads , thanks , Fred
 And Ben I was set on the Grizzlies until I found out that they probably won't be making a left bevel , thanks , Fred

[hunt it]

Ben,

Put a couple woodies in your quiver to make you feel better. Pull out the Grizzly's when $hit gets deep and no trees in sight! It's a mental state - mind over matter - carbons the way to go for me. Wood is romantic and there is nothin romantic about the tip of a buffs horn you know where.  

[Orion]

O.L.  I've been playing with footings and the internal metal footings in the point of woodies for a while also.  As you no doubt know, the 100 grains or so of metal rod in the front does a lot more to increase the foc than a hardwood footing.  The hardwood footing replaces wood that was already there so it's only the difference in the weight of the woods, not the weight of the actual hardwood footing, that is added toward the front of the arrow.  That may be as little as 20 to 50 grains depending on the woods used, and its spread out over 8-12 inches.  

The internal metal rod has a much greater impact due to its heavier weight and placement at the point/front of the shaft.  It also seems to strengthen the area immediately behind the head, since the metal rod normally extends back into the shaft another inch or two.  Maybe all it does is move the weak/susceptible point back that distance, but so far the arrows I've tested have held up pretty well.  Bounced back at me when I shot them into a solid oak, broke the shaft mid shaft on a glancing shot.  Need more testing, of course.