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Author Topic: Bare shaft tuning questions  (Read 1775 times)

Offline BillyMarkwell

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Bare shaft tuning questions
« on: March 10, 2007, 05:49:00 AM »
Got my Easton axis test kit form 3rivers last week, this past weekend I started bare shaft tuning……my bow wt. is 53 pounds at 29 inches…..I left the arrows full length with a 145gr. Pt…..the kit came with all 4 sizes….300, 340, 400 and 500….at 10 yards they all shot equally well, but when I backed up to 20 yards, WOW!!!....the bare shaft 500 and 400 kicked nock left so bad, that they completely missed the target….the 340 hit the target but it was the 300 that shot dead on at 20 yards….both bare shaft and fletched….this was a surprise to me because the Easton arrow chart says that I should be shooting the 400….the 300 is way to stiff for my set up…but is shoots great…I know I can shorten up the 400 and reduce the point wt and maybe get it to fly well, but I will have to add wt. to get it to the 10 gr. Pre pound that I want….OH the joy of tinkering with arrows….what say all you other arrow tinkers out there?????

Offline Bonebuster

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2007, 09:31:00 AM »
I switched to Trad stuff a long time ago. It took two years of messing around with all types of arrow material until I finally figured out that I needed to be overspined with EVERY arrow I used.

Wood arrows were the worst. To straighten up and fly right I with wood, I needed 80 plus spine from a 65lb recurve.

I was told by several people that if you have a draw lenght over 27-28" it was not uncommon to need a more stiff arrow than what the charts said.
I draw just past 28.

Offline Scott Smith

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2007, 01:31:00 PM »
It sounds like you shooting a recurve cut past center. I would build out the strike plate and
try again. The smaller axis are pretty sensitive
when a bow is cut past center if the strike plate
is thin.Good luck.
He who sacrifices freedom for safety deserves neither.
~Benjamin Franklin

Offline JBiorn

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2007, 01:39:00 PM »
I have often wondered about this whole bareshafting thing. I have read(and I'm certain that others have as well)mixed opinions about bareshafting. Some say that bareshafting is the way to go because you are ensuring proper tuning, however I have also read(and this makes sense to me)that bareshafting is a waste of time because we shoot fletched arrows and why not tune with a fletched arrow for this very reason?

 Why would we even fletch the arrow if we didn't need the fletching? That was the jist I got from that article.

 When tuning, wouldn't a fletched arrow shoot differently than a bare shaft? I ask this because we all hunt with fletched arrows, so why not tune with feathers on?

 I'm no expert---so I would love to hear the opinions of the more experienced guys..


 Jeff

Offline olddogrib

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2007, 01:56:00 PM »
Billy,
One of the reasons people switch to carbons is to purposely shorten them until they have to add alot of point weight (at what used to be unheard of FOC's) to boost total arrow weight well above equivalently spined aluminum.  My Beman/Axis 500's with 200-250 grain heads are well over 100 grains heavier than the 1916/2016's that I used to shoot.  As bow poundage and draw length increase to the point you're shooting aluminums in the 600+ grain range, the rationale for doing this probably diminishes, unless you simply believe carbon has some inherent penetration advantages, which I do.
"Wakan Tanka
 Wakan Tanka
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Online McDave

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2007, 02:03:00 PM »
I'm a believer in bare shaft tuning.  The problem tuning with a fletched arrow is that the feathers mask the subtle wobbles that are apparent when shooting a bare shaft.  Sometimes, when you shoot a bare shaft and get an obvious nock left, say, you can then shoot a fletched arrow and notice a little blip left out of the corner of your eye that you would otherwise miss.  And that's only if it's an obvious wobble; once it gets close, there's no way you could tell on a fletched arrow.  But it's still there, and will have a negative effect in two ways:

1.  The wobble will introduce another variable into your arrow flight, that will cause you to have wider groups.  If you're close to being tuned, you might need a shooting machine to tell the difference, but it's there.  One of my goals is to eliminate as much equipment error as I can, so when I miss, I know where to point the finger.

2.  Energy going into making the arrow wobble is not going into making the arrow fly true, meaning that an arrow that starts out with a wobble is not going to fly as fast or penetrate as much as an arrow that flys straight.

Actually, people who are really into this don't stop at bare shaft tuning.  Once they get a bare shaft to fly well, they paper tune with a fletched arrow.  At this point, their arrow shaft is selected, but they might increase or decrease the length a bit, or adjust the plunger if they have one, or move the arrow in or out on the arrow shelf a little.  Even adding or taking off a bow quiver will effect arrow flight.

For me, if I can get my bare shaft to group with my fletched arrows at 30 yards, I'm satisfied and stop there.
TGMM Family of the Bow

Technology....the knack of arranging the world so that we don't have to experience it.

Offline JRY309

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2007, 02:23:00 PM »
I like to bareshaft,I don't worry about spine charts for traditional bows.There are too many varibles involved,your draw length,your release,how is your bow cut.And even the type of string can effect spine to some degree.Carbon arrows are not availible in the large variety of spine sizes like wood or aluminum.So you have to adjust the spine by shortening the arrow or by adding front end weight or trying a different spine.JMO

Offline Jerry Jeffer

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2007, 02:30:00 PM »
O L Adcocks site explains bare shafting very well. How, Why etc.
I will give thanks to the LORD because of his righteousness and will sing praise to the name of the LORD Most High.

Offline Scott Smith

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2007, 04:41:00 PM »
Fletching is only needed for broad heads, if
the arrow is tuned to the bow. I'm a big fan
of bare shaft tuning, big feathers can hide
a lot that's why all flu-flu's seem to shoot
good. Bare shaft hides nothing however bad form
will sometimes show up and give false info.
He who sacrifices freedom for safety deserves neither.
~Benjamin Franklin

Offline AkDan

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2007, 08:59:00 PM »
I also go about this like McDave does.  Start at bareshafting then go to paper tuning, then I'll start group testing to really fine tune things, sometimes with bh's sometimes bareshafts and field points.


You're right, ya stick feathers on a bareshaft and you'll find out real quick that what showed perfect bareshaft probably shows a tad stiff now.   Just happened with this last bow the other day.   Just happened to have an arrow in the same spine group a few pounds lighter that put a PERFECT fletched bullet hole through paper where the original bare shafted arrows kicked 1/2" or so.    

Guess it really depends on how nit picky you want to get.  Every once in awhile I come acrossed a bow I cannot tune, though rare it does happen.   Have had two in the recent past.   One it seems is due to tiller.  I tried measuring tiller but until after talkign to the bowyer found out I wasn't measuring like he was, stands to reason the figure I was getting was different.

Bareshafting is just one tool in the tool box of getting perfect arrow flight.   And in getting perfect arrow flight being the best shot you can be!

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2007, 09:04:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jerry Jeffer:
O L Adcocks site explains bare shafting very well. How, Why etc.
I agree, O.L. does a great job talk about how to use the bareshaft to tune your bow....

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2007, 10:06:00 PM »
OK guys....You are starting to sound dangerously like the dark side of the force here.....next thing you know you'll be duct taping a laser on the riser, using BT releases, and eyeballing the wheelie bows....Give it a rest guys...

It's basic phisics here...if you are center shot and have a good release....you can shoot as stiff a shaft as you want. for a self bow, long bow, or recurve that you shoot off the shelf with....you need a little flex to get around the post....plain and simple.....the idea of paper tuning arrow flight using fingers is ridiclas....

Offline Otto

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2007, 11:11:00 PM »
I used to think that bareshafting was a waste of time, till I got ahold of a bow that was a bugger to tune.  Let me tell you, it was mighty impressive to watch a bareshaft 2117 hit dead on POA at 30 yds once I had the right arrow.  Went backand bareshafted all my setups for all of my bows.  It tightened my groups probably 20% or so.

I have to laugh now at folks who  poo poo it as I used to be one.  Give it a try.  It's not like a big wart is suddenly gonna grow on yer nose.
Otto

Offline AkDan

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2007, 03:40:00 AM »
why Kirk......the hole point is being the best you can.   Why not take the time to find the right shaft and then tune it to shoot as good as it can.   Makes sense when you're out trying to kill something or you're into shooting 3ds for fun or any kind of competition.

But now if you're in it just to whack stumps and whatnot, by all means walk around the woods with arrows doing endo's and enjoy it.  Doesnt matter then if you hit it or not, or how that arrow hits it.   Not trying to be smart, but trying to tune just by shooting really doesnt get you anywhere or atleast as good as you can.

The only problem I have with Ol's method.  Is what happens when you're shooting arrows that are way under or over spined and they come out sideways?  SNAP is what happens!!!   I have piles of shafts and still hate to see this happen!!!   SO why not start getting close without worying about groups....then going to paper tuning to get even closer, then really fine tune with group testing?  Makes more sense to me atleast.  But then again I've been known to do senseless things.....so take it for what it's worth.  I'll know by hunting season my rigs are setup to shoot as good as they can without a doubt!

Offline BillyMarkwell

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2007, 05:12:00 AM »
Thanks for all the input....I should have mentioned that I'm shooting a Savannah longbow...I'm sold on the bareshaft tuning method..have pretty much decided that I will shoot the one that hits where I'm aiming out to  30 yards...

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2007, 10:56:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AkDan:
why Kirk......the hole point is being the best you can.   Why not take the time to find the right shaft and then tune it to shoot as good as it can.   Makes sense when you're out trying to kill something or you're into shooting 3ds for fun or any kind of competition.

But now if you're in it just to whack stumps and whatnot, by all means walk around the woods with arrows doing endo's and enjoy it.  Doesnt matter then if you hit it or not, or how that arrow
hits it.   Not trying to be smart, but trying to tune just by shooting really doesnt get you anywhere or atleast as good as you can.

The only problem I have with Ol's method.  Is what happens when you're shooting arrows that are way under or over spined and they come out sideways?  SNAP is what happens!!!   I have piles of shafts and still hate to see this happen!!!   SO why not start getting close without worying about groups....then going to paper tuning to get even closer, then really fine tune with group testing?  Makes more sense to me atleast.  But then again I've been known to do senseless things.....so take it for what it's worth.  I'll know by hunting season my rigs are setup to shoot as good as they can without a doubt!
Hey there Dan……hold on there Hoss!

I’m with you on the importance of having a proper arrow spine completely. I’ve been a nut about that for years myself. I didn’t mean to come off wrong here bro……I  have many years experience of building and fine tuning arrows for speed bows shooting in excess of 300 fps. I’m no stranger to bare shaft tuning and paper tuning either…..The point I was trying to make is that paper tuning using a mechanical release aid is tough enough already to get an accurate reading to make any sense of as it is….the constant release required to do this kind of testing with any realistic data results, would require super human capacity. Paper tuning is mandatory for a speed bow as far as I’m concerned, and could be used on traditional bows too if a mechanical release aid was used…..but what’s the point? You are going to shoot that bow with fingers….. A big part of the skill required to be a consistently good shot with a traditional bow, comes from mastering your release.

I stand my ground on this part Dan…..Paper tuning with  fingers would do nothing but complicate and confuse the average archer….Period….It frustrates and confuses the average compound bow shooter using a release aid too.

Even bare shaft tuning can be frustrating sometimes. Its all about consistency. All the human error factors  in archery is what makes this such an excellent sport. We have a wide range of archers out there from pros clear down to first timers. I would love to talk further with you on the intricate details involved in arrow/ bow tuning. Please PM me some time.

But what I would like to see is a post explaining the easiest way for the average archer out there to match their arrows to their bows as closely as possible with out all the required consistency skills needed to do this advanced testing.

I myself am fairly new to traditional archery, and have many questions on the fine arts of shooting and tuning these bows.

Come on guys….Lets here some good options in layman’s terms to help the average archer get the right arrows matched up to their bows!

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2007, 12:26:00 PM »
One more point here and i'm done for now.....

The statement you made "The whole point is being the best you can be." That may in fact BE the whole point to you....But there are a lot of others out there that just want to have fun with shooting or hunting and have their arrows shoot straight without consern for "being the best you can be" They just want the dad burn arrow to come out straight!

I have a slightly different philosophy that is shared by a lot of archers i've known over the years.

"You can, and will get out of archery, exactly what you put into it." ....If you sincerely want to be more accurate shooting your bow...you practrice more.....If you are unhappy with the way your arrows are flying.... seek knowlege and remidy the situation. If you want better performance out of your bow....same thing...Go for it!

If you find satisfaction in being the best you can be Dan... so be it!....i wish you happiness and joy in your pursuit. there are all kinds of folks out there that want different things out of this wonderful sport. i wish everyone the best in their pursuit

As hunters we DO have responsibilities to uphold which require being concientious about our individual limitations and skill. In this day and age....if you need the meat and can't shoot that bow straight....go to the store! or get your rifle out of the closet. This IS a sport guys....an age old form of weaponry we are trying to preserve that is a pure art form in many ways. this is my whole line of reasoning for pursuing traditional archery. i spent 17 years shooting a compound bow in pursuit of the most proficient way to shoot arrows using every high tech advantage there was.....the engineering has taken a huge step forward the last few years giving even the average archer an exceptional ability to shoot extremely fast arrows accurately at much further distances. it has taken a lot of the romance of archery in its true form completely out of the picture for me anyway......

But to wrap this up....to each his own!...do you want to rely on technology to give you an edge? or do you prefer to challange your own acquired skills......i'm begining to think I like a little of both myself....the spice of life has individual tastes.....

Offline WESTBROOK

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2007, 07:27:00 PM »
Kirk, I would hardly call bare shafting "relying on technology". Its about the easiest way to find the right spined arrow, just takes a little time.

Eric

Offline AkDan

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2007, 07:45:00 PM »
Kirk,

I hear ya there.   Dunno if going over board in the beginning phases is worth it to many but it is to me.  

You say it's hard to get consistent results?    Well I'd have to say no it's not, and thats with wood shafts to boot.    Take for instance a longbow I have, that has a crooked limb to boot and a shelf that falls off to oblivion as it comes out from the site window instead of being flat acrossed and radiused.  

For quite awhile I thought my 65-70's flew out of it.  Till Ihad the problems with this past bow I bought used, (found out after the fact by the bowyer it was tuned for 3 under not split and the way it was tuned would be tough to shoot split).   SO that bow is going back to get retillered.   The crooked bow however has been a so so consistent shooter for me.  It's kinda been a backup till now.    3 weeks to go and it's the only bow I have that I can consistently shoot.   SO figured what the heck, just to make sure it wasnt ME the nut behind the bow getting bad results bareshafting and paper tuning.   I figured what the heck, let's confirm what I thought I knew.

So here ya go, a simple run down of the past 3 weeks with the crooked bow.

Off to the block target (through the living room, down the hall way and against the font door, you'da thought I would have learned da first time....uh...NOPE).    

65-70's weak, consistent left kick, 70-75's slightly weak  and or slightly stiff (shooting 3 shafts of each spine group per round), 75-80's, consistently stiff, right kick.   So, took the 70-75's to the spine tester. found out that two of my 70-75's were both 74lb spined and one was 70.   The 74's were spot on to slightly stiff, the 70 showed weak.    Just so happens I have a bunch of 70-75's fletched up for test arrows.  Buds would come over trying to tune their rigs.   It's the only way to go.    So found a 70lb and two 74lb spined fletched shafts.  

off to the real range.

first 5 or 6 groups were as good as you could ask for, 3 of 4 (was shooting 1 bare shaft 74lb spine alternating it with another 72lb spined shaft off and on just for kicks, 4 shots per round).   Then started noticing things were consistently left. On target but left.  

off to the paper.

Come to find out, the 74's fletched were now tearing stiff 1/2 to 3/4".   Go figure.  The 70lb spined shaft was a PERFECT hole with 3 tears for the feathers, as good as you could ask out of any bow.   the 72 was extremely close also to spot on perfect.   You know what I'll be building for hunting arras.

It's really not hard, just takes time.   That used bow I bought though was giving me fits, constant nock high kick, tear didnt matter what I did.   How high the nock was, how high I built the shelf up, where I put my hand or how hard it was placed.  When in doubt, call the guy who built it lol, lesson learned.  Good thing too, was about ready to start pounding my head on the concrete floor....wouldnt have helped but sure would have been much gooder, definatly would know why it hurt and how to fix it lmao

if you're gonna hunt I would highly suggest doing as much as you can to get as good of arrow flight as you can.  If thats bareshafting, group testing, paper testing, or just shooting arrows, so be it.   But do it the best you can.  

"You can, and will get out of archery, exactly what you put into it." ....If you sincerely want to be more accurate shooting your bow...you practrice more.....If you are unhappy with the way your arrows are flying.... seek knowlege and remidy the situation. If you want better performance out of your bow....same thing...Go for it!


This paragraph is SPOT ON, and this method is just one of many ways to getting it!  Only thing I could add.   Ya wanna shoot better, tune your bow, then tune yourself, depending on the problem, not nessicarly in that order!!!

Offline Jason R. Wesbrock

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Re: Bare shaft tuning questions
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2007, 09:18:00 PM »
People were tuning bows long before they put wheels on the limbs.

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