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Author Topic: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...  (Read 2508 times)

Offline Chuck Hoopes

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2009, 11:29:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by George D. Stout:
Prices will level-off or people will eventually go out of business.  We have created the monster by giving a sort of royal status to certain brands over the past few years.  That made others think they could ask huge amounts for their bows as well.  Then Martin sees it is lagging behind by keeping their bows affordable and raise the price on them to custom standards.

Unemployment right now is 7% but that is only those who are listed on National scale...those actively seeking jobs and on those roles.  The real figure is closer to 10%.  It's going to get even worse.  Those of you making great money better keep you senses sharp and mind those finances.  This recession is not nearly over and no one is exempt from rough times.
I always I think if Martin priced something like their Howett Hunter for $200 they would have a hard time selling them.  I mean how good could just a $200 bow be- when most of the bows out there are $500 plus?  Must be junk? Right?  I think when lots of people started to get interested in Trad. arch. again-say 15-20yrs. ago, there was a big increase in Custom Bowyers--naturally their prices were alot higher than prod. bows, as they should be.  Prob. was that production bows looked too cheap," must be shoddywork "etc.  Martin had to raise their price so as not to give the impression they were white elphants.  I think the price of Martin prod. Bows is absurd, but I understand why they have to do it to sell them.  Now I just make my own bows or buy things like 20yr. Howett hunters for 100-$150,
shoot as well as they ever did.  I can't afford the prices of these new bows, and if I could I wouldn't anyway, just like Iam not going to buy $10 cup of coffee.    :knothead:

Offline NDTerminator

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2009, 07:33:00 AM »
Again, I never meant this question as a slight to custom bowyers.

And for those who don't know, I've had and still own my share of custom & semi-production type bows.  My primary bow is a Lee TD Hunter and coming a close second is a Kota Prairie Swift that Tim & I brainstormed one afternoon in his shop.  We hand picked the piece of Bocote for the riser & limb veneers and it turned out to truly be a work of art and worth the price I paid him to build it for me.  I've had & traded or sold a number of Chek Mates (still have one H2 with a couple sets of limbs) and even a Fedora. Over the years I've also had my share of productions bows to include Wing, Bear, Herter's, and Martin.

All that being said, yesterday UPS delivered a LH 50#@28" 58" Chiron Volcano which cost $252 including shipping and was here 6 days after I ordered it.

Not expecting much, I was about floored when I opened the box and found a gorgeous and beautifully balanced recurve that is nearly as good looking as my Swift, every bit as eye pleasing as my Zebrawood H2, and makes my actionwood & brown glass Lee look like a mud fence.

It wasn't all looks, either.  In 20 minutes I had it set up with a basic tune and found it to be smooth, zippy (visually appears faster than the 55#@29" Swift and right in the ball park of the faster 53#@28" Lee and 53#@28" H2), quiet & accurate.

In short, ever bit as good a shooter as the custom/semi-production bows I have that cost better than twice as much; far better shooting, handling, and looking than the last couple considerably more expensive production bows I've owned (a 2007 Bear K-Mag and 10 year old Martin Mamba).  

This perfectly illustrates my question & frustration.  Why aren't we seeing a bow like this in a comparable price range from an AMERICAN COMPANY?!!!!             :mad:
"As Trad as I wanna be"

"It's all just archery, and all archery is good"

Offline Holm-Made

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2009, 07:57:00 AM »
I'm glad you are happy with your foreign bow.  The reason I can't build you a 250.00 bow has been explained many times in this thread already.  If you haven't figured it out yet then there is no use explaining it to you anymore.  Peace to you and yours,  Chad

Offline TradBowyer

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2009, 08:09:00 AM »
Boy, I hope i don't open a can of worms here but i wonder how people who are griping about the "massive profits" custom bowyers are making work for a union and making 3X as much as their job is worth...funny how no one thinks they are in that category....i have friends in Michigan who worked for the auto industry...Hearing what people got paid in that sector, if it wasn't such a travesty, it would actually be funny.

George posted in regards to a $250 bow: "if a person does buy one of those, I'm sure they know what they are buying and not expecting a $900.00 bow"......if only this were true. I've seen guys handle a $300 bow and compare it to a black widow they had in their other hand. LOL

Offline leatherneck

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2009, 08:27:00 AM »
I'm curious as to what some consider a "production bow". Or even a semi production bow. All bowyers use equipment to make a bow, custom or not. Whether it be an electric sander, band saw, or CNC machine. So I guess we could call all bows "production bows". But let me tell you something. I made a visit to Bob Morrisons house again yesterday and as always enjoyed walking around the shop. I almost hit his Lamborgini going down the drive of his 10,000 sq. ft. mansion drive. Just kidding, Bob has a modest but nice home and his doors are open to all. Anyhow, Bob does have a couple employees that help him out. But as some say it is not a custom bow because someone else has their hands on the bow. But to keep up with the demand and to get bows out within 6-8 months, he has too! And although there are the tools I mentioned above in Bob's shop, guess what I saw. An employee of Bobs with a riser in a vise and working a riser into shape with a hand file. Yes, a hand file. I asked "wouldn't that be easier on a machine"? He said "maybe so, but a machine would not get the fine details that I can do by hand". Enough said.

So before we start bashing bowyers for the price of bows, put yourself in their shoes. I'm happy to say I shoot a Morrison and also don't mind paying the money for one either. And I work in a prison! Not making millions here folks. It's called save up! It's been said before and I'll say it again" buy what you feel you can afford, but don't criticize others for what they do".

My hats off to all bowyers out there for giving me "The Choice" to buy and shoot your products. I appreciate what you all do, regardless of price.

Smile George, it's going to be OK.

Mike
“I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can’t accept not trying"

Proud shareholder of MK,LLC

Offline DCM

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2009, 09:26:00 AM »
Having been self employed I know exactly, intimately, where the professional bowyers are coming from.  It's darn near impossible to not have chip on one's shoulder.  And believe it or not customers are usually the root of (my) resentment (I'm not a professional bowyer), whether it's "because" they don't appretiate what goes into the product, the value of the product, don't pay on time, expect extrodinary service, or some other reason.

FWIW, I don't see commenting with a observation like "I can buy a nice bow for $250" (even if it's from Korea) as attacking custom bowyers, or their prices.  Or similarly pointing out folks won't necessarily buy the high end all the time, particularly when economics downturns come.  Or even when they say something like the hobbyist bowyer down the street makes a really, really nice bow.  In short, ignorance (which may be too strong a word) is benign, not necessarily malice or distain.  And it is after all the default state for many issues like this.  Run of the mill folks simply aren't in touch with the details.

My hat's off to craftsman, farmers, ranchers, school teachers, etc. who are willing to forgo the value of some other occupation to pursue their passion.  On the other hand, I'm not compelled to have a whole lot of sympathy for the consequences of that choice either, since I hate like hell to be locked up in an office building all day.  I'd much prefer to just do what I like for a living, but my wife and dotter spend more money than I can make doing that so I "have" to sell my time for the most money I can, even if I don't necessarily prefer that.  One has to value that freedom some way, and it can be perty darned expensive.

Offline Straight Shootin'

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2009, 09:36:00 AM »
Thank god for America we still can make choice's Custom or mass production, Wal Mart or your local store.
USN(RET) 1977-99
SOM 2001-2019

52" Fedora Stalker
Bear K-Mag x2
Predator Velocity 60"

"If you are not working to protect hunting, then you are working to destroy it." -- Fred Bear

Offline NDTerminator

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2009, 09:53:00 AM »
With all due respect and as I've explained several times Chad, my legitimate question is not a slam on guys like you, nor for that matter did I question or even address you directly.  To paraphrase you, if you haven't figured that out yet there's no use in my saying it again. BTW, that chip on your shoulder sure is a turn off to a potential customer...

The original bow & company I spoke of is hardly an individual custom bowyer, yet their prices are some of the highest out there.  In regard to them, I questioned the wisdom & thought process of raising all ready exhorbitant prices during tough economic times.

Putting snarkiness aside though, I truly am puzzled.  The only similarly priced production bow I can think of right off the top of my head is the Bear Grizzly, and it's a 2x4 compared to the Volcano. Have never seen one, but from what I gather CM's 60" one piece recurve is probably pretty close in both quality & price...

I just can't help but think both the bow companies and the bow shooting public would benefit by an attempt to emulate a bow like this at a similar price.  They sell more bows and more archers & potential archers get access to a quality affordable bow...
"As Trad as I wanna be"

"It's all just archery, and all archery is good"

Offline vermonster13

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2009, 10:02:00 AM »
The Quinns are priced in that ballpark and will shoot circles around the Chirons and Samicks. Made in America too.
TGMM Family of the Bow
For hunting to have a future, we must invest ourselves in future hunters.

Offline britts

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2009, 11:48:00 AM »
How many of you complaining about the cost of bows are willing to work for the same hourly wage as bowyers? In addition are you willing to work at their wage rate and give up health insurance, vacation pay, sick days, etc.? How about time and one half or double time for overtime? I'm assuming that you guys also won't complain if your job gets outsourced for cheap labor in another county. The American way...we want it all..high wages on good benefits for ourselves...but all our goods as cheap as possible. Guess what? That means made with ceap foreign labor. Chad, Brandon, Bob, I'm with you. You complainers do what you want. As for me, my bows will be made by American craftsmen.

Offline Brent Rudolph

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2009, 12:28:00 PM »
Sgt. Barnett,

With all due respect, it has been explained to you several times. With between $125 and up to $250 in materials, it is hard to sell a bow of any quality for $250. I agree there are those who are doing it, but I assure you they are not making anywhere near what they are worth. The foreign market is a very different animal than American custom bowyers. Initially, they are buying, or building, material product in massive quantities, building their own composites, utilizing children, elderly, prison labor, national loyalists you get the idea. They are paying little or nothing in assembly cost, and their materials cost are much less due to the mainly state owned factories pumping out glass, foam core material and epoxy with minimal cost to any corporate institution. ACLU don't allow that in the good ol US. Same song, different verse, my father's foundary went bankrupt in the 80's along with thousands of other small, like businesses due to foreign compitition. I use the term compitition loosely. In fact, Dad lost his business to a company in India which undercut his prices on castings. When dad went to talk to the municiple officials he had been serving with water/sewer rings and lids for years, they showed him the cost difference. They were actually selling finished product shipped for what dad was paying for scrap. Welcome to the US.

I recall a recent post here that Bob put out asking if anyone wanted to work in his shop. I am not sure how many returns he got off of that, as well he should. I wish I had the opportunity  to work along side a man of Bob Morrison's charactor. Problem? Pay. Not many, if any, who called, PMed, emailed, or actually physically went to Bob's shop inquiring about the coveted position could make it on what Bob was offering. I am sure some were flustered if not outraged at the pay offer. Well, I know for a fact that it wasn't that Bob didn't want to be more generous. I felt he was overly kind. But, those who were ready to sell out and leave their homes, families, dogs to work for Mr. Morrison found out they couldn't make it on what he was able to pay. I, Sgt Barnett have been an employee and an owner. I made more money working for a bow company than owning one.

Liability. Since the 80's Americans have learned that being a professional victim is a pretty dang good job. As a result, insurance has gone through the roof. Seems it is bowyers fault that people choose the string their bows differently than instructed, sometimes backwards, whatever..... Fall on it while climbing a tree, although we and treestand companies make it very clear they should use towstrings in order to have both hands free and the area around the tree free of hazards. They aren't awarded stupid signs by the courts, but thousands in liability for physical therapy and psychotherapy for PTSD suffered form the fall. When I was a kid, I used to get my ass beat for falling out of a tree and hurting myself. Me and dad still laugh about it. Only in America does McD's have to write on a coffee cup, "Contents May Be Hot". In other countries, they don't worry about liability that much. Hurt yourself with a bow you bought, hurt youself with it doing something off the beaten path with it, and you go to jail. Say if a guy buys a bow from an importer and puts his eye out stringing it with the ol push/pull meathod, they go after the American import company, not the foreign manufacturer.

Taxation without representation. The feds require 11% tax off the top of every item manufactued in this field. Wait, there's more. We then pay self-employment tax. The highest tax range the IRS can come up with. Many then pay Uncle State their taxes for the pleasure of living and doing business in that piece of heavan.

Bottom line. Hell, it don't matter, buy the bow you want. Aren't you the same guy that posted a while back a "bowyer's challenge" to build quality short bows for ground blind hunting? Sir, how offensive is that to Bob Lee's Little curve, Kemph's lil Griz, Ron's short Shrew's, I know I'm missing many quality bows that foot that bill. Oh, the Sheepeater.

So, I wouldn't go making comments to Chad about chips on the shoulder, or threats of lost clientel, until you leave your government job with salary, health benefits, 401k, paid vacation, equiptment expense.........yes, I was a cop too, and try to eek out a living as you suggest. Pay $150 in materials only, from fine American companies, and spend 12+ hours hands on crafting a working piece of your soul. Oh, that 12 hours is after you spend years figuring out how to set up your shop, and minimize your time on max efforts. Then sell that puppy for $250. I got the number for Binghams if you would like to get started making good money right away. Besides that, I understand through very reliable sources that Chad is one of the finest men on this forum. So, as a brother archer, and an ex brother of the badge, I ask you to stand down on this one Sgt. You just told a real fine bowyer he wasn't worth his salt.

By the way, Martin's new all boo core longbow is $300 more than mine, and I use clear glass. Oh, and it is short enough to shoot comfortably in a blind.

Have a good one out there in NoDac Sgt. You stay safe and warm out there. I sure appreciate what you do my brother. Cold hard place to be a cop.

Brent
TGMM Family of the Bow

Offline legends1

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2009, 12:39:00 PM »
Thanks,britts."A MEN"

Offline Kingwouldbe

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2009, 12:57:00 PM »
I tried to not post here but my hands wont stop typing.

First, I want to thank one of the most unappreciated crafts in the world, the Bow-yer.

Last year I bought 1 ACS CX, 3 Morrison, and 3 Habu's, I sold all but 1, and I'm still in the market for some others.

I rented a Ferrari F1 Spider for the weekend just for kicks once, $1,700 per day, no, I'm not rich, far from it.

But I wanted to do it, how many people have got to drive a Ferrari in there life, not many, by the way, cant wait to do it again or buy one some day, (I went 160 and had 2 more gears left, yee-ha!! the thing cornered  like the tiers where mad out of gummy bears, I also let my 16 year old son drive it, experiences of a life time, PRICELESS

Life is way to short to shoot JUNK, I for one expect excellence from my self, why in the world would I not expect excellence from my Bow.

Man, it's a good thing I'm not a Bow-yer, I'd charge $5,000.00 per bow or more, I don't want to build a bow for the average Joe, I want to be like the Ferrari, only a few could afford my product.

You can build your own bow out of a shovel handle for the price of a stick of wood, go for it. if that's what floats your boat.

But please don't compare a model T with a Ferrari
   

Offline JohnV

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2009, 01:44:00 PM »
I'm still waiting for BMW to lower the price of their sports car so I can have one too.  I think they charge too much such that the average guy can not afford one.  Until then I guess I'll have to keep driving my old pickemup truck.
Proud Regular Member of the Professional Bowhunters Society

Offline Big Fisherman

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2009, 03:48:00 PM »
I've had my share of low-priced foreign bows.  From the 5 I bought, there is only one which I enjoy shooting.  One was impossible to tune, two stacked even worse than a certain American manufacturer's $350.00 long bow, two had hand shock which caused the wrist on the bow arm to hurt 24-7.  At $300.00 each, I invested $1500.00 to get one acceptable bow.  I sold the ones I didn't like for about $180.00 each.  What a bargain...I now own a $300.00 bow for $780.00.  Last year I picked up a Pittsley Predator used for $400.00,  it's now the bow I use 80% of the time.  I think the new price on it would be about $650.00.  It is actually a bargain.  I don't know if the Predator is now considered "factory made", but it works and that is OK for me.

Offline Bob Sarrels

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #75 on: January 14, 2009, 06:28:00 PM »
My prices have remained the same.  As a matter of fact I have a economic stimulous sale goin on right now.  Take a look at my site.
Now then, get your weapons ~ your quiver and bow ~ and go out to the open country to hunt some wild game for me.  Gen. 27.3

Offline jojotater

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #76 on: January 14, 2009, 09:10:00 PM »
I believe NDTerminator was refering to an entry level bows from big production companys. I may be wrong, but I don't think he was talking about custom bows. I'm sure if someone was looking for a custom bow, they are willing to pay a reasonable amount for the good crafted work. I think that is a totally different market. Someday I hope to get a custom bow.

I agree times are hard, and someone with a modest income, looking for their first bow at a low price, are seeing a lot of imports as a good choice. Maybe some American company should try to make a lower priced bow to compete if they can.

I work in a large factory--we make above ground swimming pools. We make a low end pool to compete with China-made pools. They are not in the class with our highend pools, nor do we promote them as such. They are for two totally different customer bases.

Offline MikeW

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #77 on: January 14, 2009, 10:00:00 PM »
Quote
As a matter of fact I have a economic stimulus sale going on right now.
Good one! Ever thought of running for office.
 
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils.

Offline kurtbel5

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #78 on: January 14, 2009, 11:19:00 PM »
I love vintage bows, mostly play in the history forum.

1 We are pretty lucky if you ask me, we have 4 or 5 of the best boyers out there (Unless you want a cheap bow)talking to us about "THEIR" business's

2 Not putting any one of them on a pedestal but
Just whats going to be a vintage bow in 20 yrs?? I think your talking to a few of the boyers in this thread.

I happen to like old Bear bows,
but if I liked Brandon's or Chads Or Bobs and could afford it,Cant think of anything funner than to work with a great boyer on a custom bow.

 Kurt
Hope everybody finds the deal their looking for

Offline Ausable

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Re: Bow Prices/Reasonably Priced Bows...
« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2009, 12:04:00 AM »
I love custom bows and they are worth every hard earned penny I spend on them. I'm with King on this, we are here for a short time, don't waste a single day shooting junk.
McCullough Griffin x 2
Meland Pronghorn
Morrison Shawnee
Migliorato Mohawk

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