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Author Topic: The perfect arrow  (Read 2552 times)

Offline O.L. Adcock

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The perfect arrow
« on: February 01, 2009, 10:53:00 PM »
Much has been written lately about FOC, footing arrows, tuning, Ect....Several manufactures have been playing with potential ways to easily and cheaply foot arrows without much success. With Doc Ashby we've been playing with a method that works very well.

A few things we're looking for in an arrow. One is high FOC. Another is structural integrity. Many of the ways folks have been footing shafts is external sleeves. They no doubt help but increasing the shaft diameter is not ideal plus all it's doing is moving the weak spot behind the insert further down the shaft. Internal tubing, wood, fiberglass, ect...Again moves the weak spot to another spot. They may be better but not ideal.

Here are the parts:  

Start with your shafts and brass inserts the weight you want. Aluminum inserts in a frontal hit can mushroom and deform. Brass is not as prone to do that.

The footing....Is 1/4" oak dowel you can get at most hardware stores. Make it about 7" long. The front 3" needs to fit your shafts perfectly inside. If too big it can be chucked up in a drill and sanded and doing so in a drill press with a sanding block works very well.

The remaining taper to about 1/8" in a parabolic taper, not a straight taper. Only the front 3" is glued in the shaft. What the parabolic taper does is as the shaft begins to bend from a hard angled hit, the shaft begins to contact the footing, the more it bends, the more contact is made. This spreads out the forces over a distance over time totally eliminating the typical weak spot behind inserts and other footing methods.

3" is the minimum for the parallel front section. This will keep from shoving the insert/footing back into the shaft on solid frontal hits. More then 3" could be used and more then 7" total length, just depends on if you want to increase spine and or get more weight up front.

Rough up the inside 4-5" of the shafts and swab out the dust. Smear epoxy on the 3" parallel part of the footing, slide it in almost flush with the shaft end. Slobber up the insert with epoxy and use it to push the footing into the shaft. If you push the footing in aways before the insert, you'll have an air pocket that will just push the footing too deep and leave a gap. At this time set it aside point down to cure.

Oak works well, I'm sure other woods and other materials like fiberglass or carbon will work just as well, maybe better. The oak inserts will weight about 60 grains and it's a good idea to adjust them so they are all the same. Carbon would be about 160 grains and glass a bit more.

With this footing, 100 grain inserts, 125 adapters, and 160+ grain heads, we're getting FOC's upwards of 25-30%. We've put brass, steel, or tungsten slugs, 1-2" long between the insert and the footing for some serious FOC. This also works with aluminum arrows. The 7" footing does not change the static spine but footings with longer parallel sections will.

Don't ask for "recipes" for given arrow/bow combinations, there are just too many possiblities. Have fun!   :)  ....O.L.
---Six NAA/FITA National and World flight records.----

Offline snakewood3

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2009, 11:23:00 PM »
Some awesome wisdom here.....thanks for passing it along O.L. !!!
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Offline Hornseeker

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2009, 11:27:00 PM »
THat is interesting for sure! I am very happy with my external aluminum footing...its still smaller than the ferrule of my griz or snuffer... and I never get failures...

However..I will surely try this! :0)

Ernie

Offline b.glass

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2009, 11:38:00 PM »
MORE good info.! Looks like I might be retuning arrows since going to the skinny string. This might be a good time to try this.
Thank you Mr. Adcock and Dr. Ashby!
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Offline O.L. Adcock

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2009, 11:44:00 PM »
It sure makes them bullet proof and it appears they are a good bit quieter in flight also. We're still chewing on that one and how to take it one step further...O.L.
---Six NAA/FITA National and World flight records.----

Offline amar911

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2009, 11:57:00 PM »
Nice! Thanks for sharing this with us, O.L.

Allan
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Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2009, 12:41:00 AM »
Question, If Your footing it with wood, Could you have the wood stick out 1" +/- to hold a glue-on point?

Offline ozy clint

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2009, 03:22:00 AM »
shaft makers are going to have to start making super light, super stiff shafts to keep up. especially in heavy # bows which is where this idea of footing is worth while. try finding a shaft that is going to handle 500-600grs upfront out of an 80# bow
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Offline cacciatore

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2009, 04:08:00 AM »
O.L. how do you glue the insert?
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Offline Jeremy

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2009, 07:54:00 AM »
Sal, that's the same thing as putting a foreshaft on a cane arrow... I don't see why it wouldn't work, but I think you'd want a pretty solid ridge butting up against the shaft to prevent the footing from just being pushed into the arrow.

Sure would make it easy to mount a stone head on carbon or aluminum arrows  :)
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Offline tradtusker

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 09:05:00 AM »
OL how much does the 3 inch parallel section change the spine of the arrow?
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Andy Ivy

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 09:47:00 AM »
O.L.:  You keep this up and you're going to make me want to change to carbon arrows.  :thumbsup:

Offline mp

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 09:50:00 AM »
nice, i like it!
thanks for sharing
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Offline Shaun

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2009, 09:59:00 AM »
Do you get a weak point at the brass insert / wood insert butt joint? Looks unbreakable except for possibly that spot.

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2009, 10:15:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jeremy:
Sal, that's the same thing as putting a foreshaft on a cane arrow... I don't see why it wouldn't work, but I think you'd want a pretty solid ridge butting up against the shaft to prevent the footing from just being pushed into the arrow.

Sure would make it easy to mount a stone head on carbon or aluminum arrows   :)  
Jeremy, that's where I got the idea, plus I fixed some arrows adding a small piece of 2315 easton shaft with a small piece of dowel to glue points on to so I could still use my broken arrows that where just a little to short/stiff for my bow... It worked great and gave a nice FOC and fix the spine of the arrow to make it weaker.

Offline dcolavito

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2009, 12:23:00 PM »
Hi O.L.

Many thanks to you, Dr. Ashby and any others who've worked on this - very helpful info !!!!

Much obliged for any recommendations on the following:

1. Technic to achieve "parbolic" taper?

2. Fit tolerance between dowel O.D. and shaft I.D.? 1mil, 3mils, 5mils, etc...?
- I ask b/c "The front 3" needs to fit your shafts perfectly inside", and wonder whether it's a concern that too tight a fit may not permit sufficient epoxy between them.  Also, when is the gap betwen them considered too large?

3. I'm thinking it's best to begin  tuning with these I.F.s already installed.
- For those already tuned,  would they need to re-tune (can't hurt, but wonder how necessary).

Dave    :thumbsup:
Dave

Offline Jeremy

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2009, 12:28:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by O.L. Adcock:
The 7" footing does not change the static spine
Dave, assuming this is true (fairly safe assumption  ;) ) you can get your chosen shafts close to tuned, then do the internal footing and the final tuning adjustments with point weight.  Makes sense to me anyway.
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Offline KentuckyTJ

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2009, 01:26:00 PM »
O.L. how much does the 7" sanded 1/4" dowel weigh by itself?
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Offline O.L. Adcock

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2009, 02:20:00 PM »
Okay, since O.L. has this going, I'm just borrowing his handle. Here are a few photos that might help. Also, in order to stand up on direct frontal impact (and avoid set-back) the critical glue attachment surface area is a total of 3"; that includes the brass insert and the parallel portion of the IF. On my IF's (behind a 100 grain brass insert) I use a 2" parallel glue-attached section of the IF, then parabolic-taper the terminal 5" (on a 7" OAL IF).

Photo 1 - 5" IF; 100 grain brass insert.

 

Photo 2 - 10" IF; 100 grain brass insert.

 

Photo 3 - With a properly designed and installed IF, at the worst this is all that happens with a direct impact. This shot was with the 82#@27" longbow into a 1/2" thick piece of armor plate (it's the hatch cover from an armored personnel carrier) from 20 yards. The arrow withstood 3 hits before the point bounced loose, moving forward (the field point was changed after each impact). Note that the shaft in undamaged. The IF suffered no set-back.

 

Photo 4 - This shows the flattening on the 190 grain field point that occurred on each hit.

 

Photo 5 - This shaft crack occurred on the 4th 45 degree angular impact. There was no damage on the first three shots. Note that the crack stops where the IF starts. The IF was not set-back any. See what finally did give in the next photos!

 

Photo 6 - On the forth 45 degree angular impact the brass insert and steel adaptor bent! The 190 grain field point was changed after each shot. Why? See the next photo.

 

Photo 7 - On each angular impact the field point's tip was flattened along the 45 degree angle of impact.

 

More photos in a moment.

Ed
---Six NAA/FITA National and World flight records.----

Offline O.L. Adcock

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Re: The perfect arrow
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2009, 02:25:00 PM »
Here's the rest.

Photo 8. 9 & 10 - many exotic materials were tried, from several grades of aircraft aluminum to carbon/fiberglass composite materials, but nothing (so far) has worked as consistently well as the hardwood IF's.

 

 

 

Photo 11 - My "Top Secret Weapon" for IF instillation. A popsicle stick is whittled down to a loose fit inside the shaft. It is carved just long enough to reach to the rear end of the IF's parallel glue-attached portion. Slow cure epoxy is used. After the parts are surface roughened, cleaned and glue-ready the inner wall of the shaft is lightly coated with epoxy. Then the portion of the IF to be attached is coated with epoxy. Holding the shaft vertically, the IF is inserted until flush with the shaft. The insert is then coated with epoxy and used to push the IF the rest of the way into the shaft.

Lightly coating the shaft's inner wall before inserting the IF causes the IF to push a ring of epoxy ahead as it is inserted. By using slow cure epoxy and storing the shaft vertically until the epoxy sets, a small ring of epoxy is depositied immediately back of the parallel, glue-attached portion of the IF. This adds significant reinforcement to prevent any back-set of the IF on impact. If you longitudinally section an IF shaft, this glue ring is clearly visible - and if you flex the sectioned shaft you'll be able to watch the IF at work, as it would be on an angular impact; spreading the obliquely applied force along a very long section of the shaft's inner surface.

The best epoxy I've founbd so far is Selly's Maximum Hold, which has over an hour's work time and a 3 day 'fully curred' time, but I'm not sure it is available in the States.

 

Ed
---Six NAA/FITA National and World flight records.----

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