The grizzly bare shaft planing pains

[laughing turtle]

I am having fits getting these new fangled grizzly stiks to shoot well.  Here are the stats:
I am shooting a 47#@28" Treadway Black Swamp (similar to a Shrew)FF string, not cut to center.  I am attempting to tune the "sitka" and i like to shoot a 150 grain head.
I started with six arrows, three fletched three unfletched all with 150 grains up front, plus the 70 grain insert.  At full length, the arrows were very whippy and too weak.  As i cut the shafts down 1/2" at a time the problems began.

My bareshafts were grouping to the right of the fletched(i am right hand shooter) indicating weak spine.  I got down to 30" shafts and began seeing the bareshafts shoot exactly where i was looking and the fletched shafts shooting to the left, indicating too stiff.  The fletched shafts fly beautifully, all i see is nock to the target-but they shoot almost 12" to the left of my bareshafts at 20 yards.  Elevation is good, arrow flight is good, bareshafts shoot exactly where i look.  The problem is that the fletched shafts shoot way to far left indicating too much spine.  When i shoot at the target up close, the arrows enter dead on straight in.  

It seems as i cut the shafts down to bring bareshafts closer to fletched, both the fletched and unfletched moved to the left, indicating a possible overall stiff spine.  I am sure this is not the case.  

I am confounded at the bareshafts hitting exactly where i look and the fletched shooting left.  

Any one with experience tuning these particular shafts to a non center shot bow?  I could really use some advice.  Thanks in advance.

[Jeremy]

I can get any set of arrows to "hit where I'm looking"... doesn't mean they're tuned properly, just that my mind is compensating for the untuned arrow.

If your bareshafts are grouping to the right of your fletched arrows- regardless of where things are hitting the target - you're arrows are still too weak.  

Unless of course your arrows are terribly overspined and giving a false weak indication by bouncing off the site window.  

I'd always verify what you're seeing by changing point weight before cutting.

[Greg Owen]

I would like to follow this thread too. I am no expert, but from the description it sure sounds like the fletching is making contact some place and the arrows are still recovering so you don't notice anything but good flight. How are the shafts fletched?  Maybe try cock feather in and see if you notice a difference.

[Jeremy]

Remember when using the planing method of tuning that bareshafts (or broadheads) magnify the tuning error.  You look at where they are hitting in relation to fletched shafts with field points to see what the problem is.

The last set of carbons I tuned I wanted 250gr up front.  First couple of shots with full length shafts had the bareshafts missing the target by a foot to the right (fletched shafts were in the 10 ring).  I dropped down to 75gr upfront and the arrows were all at least on the target, but bareshafts were still 12" to the right of the fletched (which were slightly left of the 10 ring).  Then I started cutting down the arrows and repeating the process until the bareshafts and fletched shafts grouped together.

The key is just to take your time, don't go into it with any real preconceived notions, and verify what you're seeing with point weight before cutting the shaft.  Once the setup is tuned properly your mind will adjust to the new point of impact.

[Old York]

LT- "...began seeing the bareshafts shoot exactly where i was looking and the fletched shafts shooting to the left, indicating too stiff...they shoot almost 12" to the left of my bareshafts at 20 yards"

Nathan, have you tried increasing your brace height by say 1/4" or even 3/8"? If this moves your fletched arrows back closer to your bareshafts, then tweak & tune the brace height to suit. (This might confirm a "too stiff" spine condition & it's completely reversible too)

Good luck with your testing, it reads right out of O.L. Adcock's Bareshaft Planing Method. Cool!

[laughing turtle]

Thanks for the advice to all.

Old York, i will try adjusting brace height.  I have not done that yet becuase the bow was quiet and no vibration.

I have tried cock feather in and it does close the distance, but not significantly.  I am sure that i am not overspined with this arrow.  I am currently at 30" with 225 grains up front of a Sitka shaft.  

Any one else have opinions or suggestions.  I am all ears.

[J-dog]

O.L. Adcock has good stuff on tuning - I used it to get my stuff tuned in BUT now I am trying two new sets of arras so I start over!!

J

[WildmanSC]

I shot some Sitka arrows out of a 47#@28" longbow, a 21st Century Saturn, this past Saturday.  The arrows had 200 gr up front and they flew like darts.  They grouped consistently and where I was looking.  I didn't have any bare shafts to shoot with the fletched shafts to do bare shaft tuning.  But the arrows flew dart straight and as I stated previously grouped real well from 10 to 20 yards.

Bill

[Greg Owen]

One other thought thats been mentioned before is to lower your tip weight. Try 125 grains if you can. If it is a spine problem, this should make it change.  Just a quick test to see if the results are consistent.
I  believe it is all about where the bareshafts hit relative to the fletched arrows.  If the bareshafts are right and you shoot right handed, that says you are underspined I believe. Try a lower tip.  Someone here told me I should use Alaskan's with my 46# Shrew with 300 grains up front.

[O.L. Adcock]

LT,.."I got down to 30" shafts and began seeing the bareshafts shoot exactly where i was looking and the fletched shafts shooting to the left, indicating too stiff."

Boy, talking about reverse logic!     The FLETCHED shafts are the reference, not the spot you are shooting at. Fletched shafts will always go closer to where they are "pointed" then bare shafts or wide broadheads. Which has nothing to do with where you are "looking". I stress over and over one MUST confirm with point weight before cutting shafts. You are seeing a weak condition that's most likely caused by being WAY over spined. I too shoot Sitkas from 45-47# and have 290 grains in front of a 75 gr insert and the bow is very close to centershot therefore needing a higher spine.

Odds are you are way over spined, cutting just made it worse. You need to jump up in point weight and or use a thinner side plate and hope after cutting you can get enough up front to do the job. Folks, keep in mind 99% of peoples tuning troubles are from being over spined, not under....O.L.

[laughing turtle]

Thanks everyone, I will load the front end with weight and see if the shafts will work for this bow.  Otherwise, be looking for some barely shot sitkas cut to 30" for sale soon.

[O.L. Adcock]

LT, unfortunatly that may be the case. The way this should have gone is the bare shafts were grouping right of the fletched..That's weak indication. Go to a 125 point instead of the 150. You would have seen no change or it got worse. One rule when testing or adjusting anything, you you make a change and don't see a change, or things get worse, you went the wrong direction..So with the 125's, no change or worse, 100's, no change or worse...By then you would have known for sure going down in point weight, stiffening the spine, was the wrong way. Start going up in point weight, step at a time until the bare shafts crossed over to the left. (the reason for them shooting right is they were so stiff the tail is hitting the bow, kicking them right)As you kept going up in weight they'd move back with the fletched shafts. More weight they would again start going right. Only when they shoot good with a lighter weight then you want to shoot, and weak with the weight you want to shoot, do you cut the shafts......O.L.

[laughing turtle]

Thanks O.L. that explains months of tuning frustration.  The proverbial light just came on for me.  Hopefully i will now be on my way to nock busting consistency.

[tiur]

LT,try hanging minimum 300 grains up front, Bob Morrison has heavy points. I used to have the same problems with carbon arrows until I loaded the front up ( 300 - 400grains ) makes a quiet bow and they hit like freight trains, good luck ASL

[Doc Nock]

OL, when heeded, has helped a lot of us not only get dialed in, but has helped us realign our mis-interpretations of his well-worded tuning guide.

He gave me double hockey sticks once for cutting some Griz..he was right... it was that I was shooting a way cut past center riser and I'd have done better to have shimmed out the sideplate...but alas, I cut some Griz Alaskans to 28.75" and I now draw 29"... so they go on the "for sale" block soon!  :(

[laughing turtle]

Well i tried putting the weight up front tonight and it definitley started moving things in the right direction.  However, i made the irreparable error of cutting too much, too soon.  I ran out of PDP weights and could only get 450 grains out front and it still shot stiff--way stiff.  This was pushing the overall arrow weight for my needs and purposes so they are up for sale on the "arrows and components" page in just a few minutes.  Expensive, but lesson learned and my understanding of archery ever deepened.

[wtpops]

Been there done that.      Some times those expensive lessons will stick with you longer  

To this day i still find my self starting to cut before i think

[laughing turtle]

What happened to the trad bows and arrows for sale links??