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Author Topic: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!  (Read 779 times)

Offline elknut1

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Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« on: February 19, 2009, 11:08:00 PM »
In light of so much talk on broadhead use & which one is best I put together this personal info.
 
  2-Blade , 3-Blade or 2-Blades with bleeders! Which are best? A lot depends on what you're hunting & what you expect from your head of use. It seems to be a subject often discussed & will continue to be so after we're all long gone! (grin) I have my preference as well, the only difference may be that I've been able to pull some stats together over the years of using both types of heads. My conclusions as to what's best for us are supported by my stats & findings under real elk hunting conditions with a few deer thrown in here & there! (grin)  I gathered these from the last 5 years from our elk hunts, this is important to me because elk are thick skinned & hided, more so than deer. What works well on elk will no doubt carry over into like animals. When hunting elk I want blood on the ground, especially on less desirable hits. This is very important if you hunt country with thick under-growth where trailing is tough without it.
  These stats are from 24 elk killed, 2 cows & 22 bulls, here's my break-down, hard facts don't lie.  (grin)  Out of these 24 Elk two were hit in the scapula/shoulder plate, one with a 2-blade Swickey 125grn & the other from a 3-bladed muzzy 125grn. Both elk were recovered.  Seven other the Elk were hit in less desirable areas bringing that total to 9. The remaining 15 were hit in the heart & lung area. This shows us that 62% of the elk taken or the 15 would have expired quickly no matter the head used. The less desirable hits were 9, that's 38% out of the so called "kill zone" when this happens you need your head to do all the damage it can & still have a blood trail to follow.  Fortunately for us this was the case with razor sharp heads.

  Here's how I view the results, 2 scapula hits out of 24 elk. That's 6 1/2% that were hit where a 2 blade could have made the difference, the one 3-bladed muzzy scapula hit was from a compound bow, it still had the energy to penetrate & do it's job. This leaves us with 93 1/2% of shots somewhere in an elks body away from major bone as scapula/shoulder hits that so many are concerned about. Ribs on an elk or like animals are no match from a reasonable setup where 40+ pounds is used along with 10grn per inch arrows. Distance is always a factor especially in lighter draw weights & setups. Point is, we have now turned to using nothing but 3-bladed heads or 2 blades with bleeders, why, larger wound channel & way more blood for trailing. We've taken 6 elk with 2-blades all results are the same, that is, little to no blood spilled. Funny thing is where the elk dies there's generally lots of blood from 2 blades but none in-between for tracking. This would be bad for the 38% where elk were hit outside major organs. I will play the odds & use 3- bladed heads, 93 1/2% chance I will miss the scapula & yet have plenty of blood on the ground for tracking purposes when needed!
    Yes, 2-blades kill, but blood trails are at a minimum. 3 blades kill & blood loss is maximized! Use common sense & use what works best for you!
   I'm not undermining 2-bladed heads, just sharing actual findings. I've never hunted with a single bevel head so can't relate any info from them, but don't feel I need to at this time!

  ElkNut1

Offline stalkin4elk

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2009, 11:46:00 PM »
My old compound with g5 montecs had excellent performance. I'm back to a recurve after many years.I read the Ashby reports and am really interested in terminal performance on elk size game when comparing light,fast arrows to Ashby style 650+ grain,single bevel setups on heavy bone hits(tough conditions). Most interesting to see so many broadheads in the pro shops that are a direct contradiction to Ashby's recomendations. Perhaps the W Woodsman would improve the Montec design because of the 3:1 angle? I'd love to punch a bull with the 300 grain Ashby head!

Online ozy clint

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 11:50:00 PM »
i've never had a 2 blade double lung shot not put blood on the ground. if you take out vitals you'll get one of two things- short follow up with a blood trail, or a short follow up with no blood trail. if both lungs are gone they don't go far. you cant expect blood trails if you don't hit the vitals, even with a multi blades.

this is with a recurve holding 54#@28"draw 20m shot 580gr arrow 2blade that is 1 1/8" wide

entry
   

exit
 
 
i'd be confident that an elk shot the same way would put out just as much blood.

IMHO a 2 blade will kill anything hit in the vitals just as well as a multiblade and on scapula shots on elk size game they have a better chance of reaching the vitals. but that's from a 2 blade fan. i don't want to risk lack of penetration on a scapula shot, especially when i'm not giving up anything to a multiblade on a double lung no bone shot. it's a no brainer to me.
but i've only shot 4 animals with anything other than 2 blades so i might not have a clue what i'm talking about.  ;)
Thick fog slowly lifts
Jagged peaks and hairy beast
Food for soul and body.

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Offline DesertDude

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2009, 11:58:00 PM »
Thank You for posting this information......
DesertDude >>>----->

US Navy (Retired)
1978-1998

Offline Steve O

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2009, 12:00:00 AM »
I agree with Paul.


This year, I experimented with the short Snuffer SS.  What I saw proved to me blade LENGTH is a very important and overlooked variable in the destruction of tissue.  Big Snuffers and Wensel Woodsmen for me forever...

If you have a 2 blade and a 3 blade of equal length, you are going to have 50% more cutting edge on the 3 blade.

Online ozy clint

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2009, 12:44:00 AM »
okay, so a 2 blade has to penetrate 50% more than a 3 blade of equal cut diameter and length to have cut the same surface area of tissue, that's understood.
that begs the question- how many percent will a 2 blade out penetrate a 3 blade on identical scapula shots? if it does penetrate 50% more it will have cut the same amount of tissue. i'd rather make up the 50% after i got though the scapula.
Thick fog slowly lifts
Jagged peaks and hairy beast
Food for soul and body.

Border black douglas recurve 70# and 58# HEX6 BB2 limbs

Offline elknut1

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2009, 09:45:00 AM »
Point is, a 2- blade or 3 blade or more including a fieldpoint can kill elk if you bury that head into the heart & lungs. Sure multi blades will out bleed 2 blades & 2 blades will out bleed the field point. That's what's important!
  Outside of the heart & lungs is where you need a head to go to bat for you, you need blood loss & extensive damage plus a wound channel that will continue to spill blood & not clog off, multi blades do just that! Your head does not need to exit the animal to produce blood, it can do plenty of additional damage slicing & dicing inside as the animal runs off. This is not speculation but hard factual info.
  Out of the 24 actual elk taken only 6 1/2% hit the scapula plate, 93 1/2% did not hit it. For those unaware that is the only major bone in an elk where a vital organ is covered by bone. And then it's a risky shot period because the lungs only lay on the bottom half of the plate below the petition wall. Anything higher & you've shot over the lungs. Don't crowd the shoulder/scapula blade you will lose in most cases!

  Have fun out there & shoot what ever gives you the most confidence! Keep it simple!

  ElkNut1

Offline Guru

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2009, 09:57:00 AM »
thank you   :clapper:   My thoughts exactly


Check this out Elknut1....

 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=068449#000000
Curt } >>--->   

"I love you Daddy".......My son Cade while stump shooting  3/19/06

Offline Paul WA

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2009, 10:49:00 AM »
If you have never seen a fresh killed elk hide you are in for a big surprise they are very thick and Im sure a full hide weighs over 100 lbs...PR
"I'm a trophy hunter till something else comes along"

Offline Steve O

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2009, 10:55:00 AM »
I've cut up elk.  The skin is paper thin compared to moose that I have also cut up, which pale in comparison to the vaunted Ashby Water Buffalo (that I've only seen pictures of)...what's the point?

Offline elknut1

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2009, 10:58:00 AM »
Guru, ahh hah! I see your method of madness there in your Thread! (grin) You were a master at bringing out some great points!!!Thanks!

  ElkNut1

Offline Molson

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2009, 03:09:00 PM »
Whenever I think I've picked a side on this debate, I get bored and try another head just for fun.  Unfortunately, the new head works just as good as whatever I was using, or just as bad depending on what I hit.  

While the odds may be in your favor of getting through heavy bone with a single bevel, or leaving more sign on the ground with a three blade gut shot, I wouldn't go counting on either.
"The old ways will work in the future, but the new ways have never worked in the past."

Offline Hornseeker

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2009, 06:37:00 PM »
So Paul, what head are you settling on with the stickbow??

I have a wide assortment of stout and sharp heads...Grizzly, Mag 1's, Razorcaps and Snuffers. The Snuffer just seems TOO Big to me to shoot elk with out a 60# stickbow..what do you guys think? Razorsharp snuffer on a 550 grain arrow traveling at about 190-195 fps? Will it penetrate good enough?

I KNOW the razorcap will and the 2 blades..but man..if that snuffer could get in far enough...it would put some major blood on the ground for sure!

E

Offline DanDaMan

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2009, 07:05:00 PM »
Well then we need to just shoot a single bevel 3 blade then......   Hmmmm  wonder how hard that would be to sharpen??
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Offline SteveB

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2009, 09:36:00 PM »
Great thread Paul - reinforces Curt's points in his thread.

Steve

Offline overbo

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2009, 11:37:00 PM »
I also think one has to take his/her effective range in concideration when deciding the type head to use .No doubt I'm a Snuffer man when comes to deer,bear,or smaller big game but elk because of the size of their kill zone .I feel I can stretch my shooting distance beyond 30yrds.I shoot 60+lbs bows and I know w/ a 550gr arro w/ a 2 blade head it will go thru the scapula and make it to the opposite side ribcage.I've done that.Now I'm on the fence w/ this 2 blade 3 blade thing because of the tracking experiences I've had w/ less than perfect 2 blade hits.Maybe the 2 blade w/ bladers is my answer?

Offline elknut1

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2009, 08:32:00 AM »
Hornseeker, I've played with the same doubt in my mind with the Big Ol Snuffer too! (grin) I honestly believe it will penetrate enough to reach vitals on an elk with a 55# bow, although I haven't tried it!!
 Probably never will, there's too many other heads to choose from that work awesome!
  Both the Razorcap & Woodsmans are pretty tough to beat, both will work excellent as you know with 50#+ setups with little issues. Your possibilities in pass throughs most likely will not happen with lower draw weights, but that is of little concern to me! I have no issues with a razored up head staying in the animal carving him good as he runs off.
  Half the elk out of the 24 had the arrow & head still in them at recovery spot. Still plenty of blood to follow with a good wound channel.
  My goto head right now is the SnufferSS 125grn I weight the tip to reach 175 grains, total arrow wt was 540 last year. I also took a Bull with the same head on a 2216 non-weighted tip, just a straight 125 SnufferSS up front at 475grn. I received awesome penetration with that setup out of 56# longbow. Of course last years bull was taken with the longbow you made! (grin)

  Overbo, don't Over-think it!!! (grin) Wound channel & blood on the ground is so much more important on elk type critters than concerning oneself with blasting through the scapula/shoulder plate! On the 24 elk taken only 6% were hit there! In 20 years we've taken better than 100 elk out of camp, I can tell you that, that 6% figure would still hold up or very close to it if all elk were considered.
  More food for thought!!! The scapula plate is a very low percentage kill area. The plate or paddle on an elk is positioned in such a manner that if the hunter hits the petition wall or higher & penetrates then he missed the lungs over the top. He's now at the mercy of the broadhead to somehow find it's way downwards & carve into the lungs, not good odds there!
  If he hits an elk below the petition wall of the paddle & penetrates he now can catch top of lungs! Point is do not crowd the shoulder paddle or scapula! There's tons of elk to hit 12" lower that that!  I know you know this, I just have a hard time stopping my finger from typing here!!(grin)

  ElkNut1

Offline overbo

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2009, 04:06:00 PM »
Nut, I agree w/ the over thinking and have taken elk w/ snuffers.Had a bad experience w/ a  snuffer and light arro on a very big bull.I've since gained 150+ grs to my arro and really want to use this set-up for elk.Infact you've just talked me into it.
Now for another debate,
I've killed several whitetails w/ WW's and 160 snuffers and the difference of wound channel is the difference between a nickle size hole to a half dollar size hole.

Offline trashwood

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2009, 04:33:00 PM »
the thing I have noticed in elk compared to deer (least texas deer) is the elk has a lot more hair to soak up blood before it starts hitting the ground.  it sure think a bigger exit wound would be better in a non-spewing wound.

rusty

Offline Al Kidner

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Re: Food For Thought--Broadhead use!
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2009, 06:20:00 PM »
Good thread...
"No citizen has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever Seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable." Socrates.

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