string stretch and skinny strings

[pdk25]

Got a 9 strand, 3 bundle string for my 63 pound recurve and an 8 strand, 2 bundle string for my 60 pound longbow.  Both made from D97 by Chad at Champion Bowstrings.  Nice strings.  Noticed a bit of creep in the strings initially that is settling down now.  Not really sure that it was string stretch though.  The strings had loops that were padded up significantly.  So much so that they barely fit it the grooves.  You can really tell a difference now, several days later.  They fit deeply in the grooves, and look like I would expect a normal string to look.  Wonder if anyone out there has any comments as to whether this theory holds any water or not.

Incidentally, the strings are very well made and my bows are somewhat more quiet.  Perhaps not the large jump that some have noticed, but my recurve had previously had a 12 strand D97 string on it and I didn't feel comfortable going with any less strands on either of my bows.

[George D. Stout]

I suppose one of these days we will have milked every quarter-ounce of performance out of these bows and have them teetering on exploding every shot.  I'm wondering what it is we are seeking that lies past that point of dimishing returns.
I wish we could see the same hell-bent push for more accuracy through form development.

[trashwood]

stability is the most important thing you can ask out of limbs or strings.  at 20 yds it may not matter a great deal if you are shooting instinctive.  if you put a sight on your bow and getting your form down like a rock you will see that all strings are not created equal.

the thin strings were not recommended by a person that shoots 90m.  come to think of it i don't think they were recommended by a person that shoots 5 spots indoors with a nfaa or fita bare bow either.  

I realized this is not a target forum but the fact is accruacy counts in hunting too.  if ya can't depended on it to do the do when shooting the state indoor championship why would you depend on it when hunting.

rusty

[O.L. Adcock]

George, they say the lack of stretch is what is hard on bows so how can you imply skinnier strings would be putting them on the edge of exploding? Logic would dictate it would be easier on them. Yep Rusty, That might be true with some quirk of recurve design but I haven't seen any evidence other then subjective opinion. Why would a fat string track any "straighter" then a skinny one?...O.L.

[trashwood]

btw - I absouletly agree with George D. Stout.  I am ready for a hell-bent push for accuracy.

You go George!  

rusty

[O.L. Adcock]

And who isn't?   ...O.L.

[pdk25]

Well George, I know you don't like heavy bows.  I guess you don't like skinny strings, either.  In any case, I wasn't actually soliciting your opinion on that.  I practice quite regularly to improve my accuracy.  I thought I would try something that might decrease the noise of my setup, since I can only shoot so many hours out of the day.  I wasn't really looking for improved performance, but if that comes with it, so be it.  Yes, I adjust the brace height and nocking point.  Yes, I shoot suitably heavy arrows.  Yes, I am aware of how to adjust my string silencers for harmonic dampening.  My real question was, since the strings are ALREADY ON THE BOWS, if it was conceivable that the initial string stretch that I observed was due to the padded loops settling.

[DesertDude]

Ok I have to ask.... what is concidered a standard string count for D97, B50, TS-1+. How many less strands makes into the "Skinny" class of strings. While working at Willow Creek Archery (B50 & FF Era) 16str of B50 was the norm when you ordered a endless and 21 str of FF for Mech bows. Now there is a bunch of different type of string material. I have worked with B50, FF, TS-1+, D97, and 8125. So what is that standard string count? I found that I and most of the people I make strings for like 12 str of D97 with 6str of B50 in each loop for padding. Beach BowHunter Gave me some TS-1+ to try, it's smaller in dia than the D97 (alot like the old FF). Tomahawk bows come with an 18str TS-1+ but after trying 18str, 15str, and 12str most like the 12str for over all performance. The most importent thing to me is that I can hit what I'm aiming at. That being said, how the bow is tuned plays a big part. I'm all for performance but not at the expence of accuracy. Another thing is how in perform under hunting conditions. For me I have settled on 9 strands of D97 (padded) and 12 strands (padded) of TS-1+. I don't want the fastest bow, I'm more interested in Stability during hunting conditions.

Sorry for getting off track on your post PDK25

[pdk25]

No problem, Desert Dude.  Reasaonable question.  Not sure what strictly is considered a skinny string.  Maybe my 12 strand D97 was.  I can tell you that so far I haven't noticed any change in short or long range (for me that is around 30 yards) accuracy.  I didn't go any lower in strand count because others had reported excessive string stretch.  Others had reported string failure, but with significantly less strand count per pound than I am using.

[O.L. Adcock]

DD, A 5:1 string strength to bow weight was the standard for a safe string way before George or Rusty ever started shooting a bow....This was back in the linen days and crossed into the same standard with Dacron. Along came the newer strings that were twice to 3 times stronger then Dacron. Building a string to the same 5:1 standard results in a skinnier string and now their nocks don't fit, it cuts into their tabs/gloves, ect...So they use half again to double what they need instead of simply using thicker serving. NO other legitamate reason! Now everyone is "conditioned" to strings built WAY too heavy/strong and thinks the string strengths all our traditional heros used is unsafe and going overboard! Go figure...

An example..What if Pdk25 had said he was using a 16 strand Dacron on his 60 pound bow..Is that OK and safe?? I'd bet not one of the nay sayers would think twice about it. Well guess what, his 8 strand DF-97 has exactly the same strength as the 16 Dacron and has more "stretch" then the 12 he was using. So where's the logic? Sounds like congress to me!   ....O.L.

[trashwood]

it is pretty easy to put it to a test.  set up a 90m target get your fita bow out and shoot 144 shots with each string without changing the sight.  you will find that one of the string will drop you 3 or 4 inches during the 144 shots.  guess which one it is and guess why your arrow drops.

rusty

[trashwood]

that is the center of my group drops 3 ro 4 inches.  guess it is no shock that I can not hold the gold at 90 m.

rusty

[O.L. Adcock]

I've done that Rusty and after I get the serving the same size and retune my bow, the arrows group 8"-10" higher so adjust my sight marks and it's good to go with closer sight marks. I think 99% throw the new string on there and of course it messes things up the same way as going to lighter arrows or cranking your draw weight up 3-4 pounds. It's no different other then the bow's quieter and shooting flatter....O.L.

[Molson]

I'll take a shot at your original question Pat and tell you "Yes".  The initial stretch could easily have been from the loops settling in.  It could also be the twist in the bundles settling too.  Either way, it will stop stretching if it hasn't already.

[DesertDude]

This string stuff is interesting to me. I have built thousands of strings of all types and 75+  since the first post about "Skinny" strings came out. We have weighted them, chrono them, hunted with them, shot them in doors (friends living room) to test the difference in sound and tried different types/strand count of string materials. The padded loops do settle/strech some as does the string. I can say how each has performed, and what we have settled on. Our test is simple/crude but it's what we did. String strech has never been a problem. We shoot them and leave the bow strung, after that strech has not been a issue.

[O.L. Adcock]

DD, "We shoot them and leave the bow strung, after that strech has not been a issue."

That's what I do. A 400# string will stretch more then a 600# no matter what the materials are...O.L.

[vermonster13]

I've shot a 6 strand on an ILF longbow rig the last couple of days and it's settled in nicely. Haven't noticed any great change in sound or any major speed up in the arrows but it is holding up just fine so far.

[ArrowAtomik]

I am interested in creep experiences with skinny strings.  I recently made what I consider a moderately skinny string of 10-strand TS-1+ with B-50 padded loops for a 45# longbow.  It was fast and quieter than my wildest dreams.  I was in love with it, but the brace height would drop up to 1/2" after 20-30 shots!  With this amount of drifting, I never really had confidence that my brace height was the same from one shot to the next.  It would return to its previous state after unbracing and every time I shot, I would have to go back through the stretching/settling process.  This is not practical for hunting if I have to "break in" the string every time before I get to the field.  I have now gone back to my loud 14 strand, unpadded string for the time-being.  

I hope to try semi-skinny padded strings with D-97 to see if it is more a charateristic of the material.  Have others experienced TS-1+ stretching and drifting in brace height much more than other materials?  Or perhaps something else was to blame, like too many twists in the string?

[George D. Stout]

I'm still waiting to see those threads/posts.  How to set up for maximum accuracy;  How to establish proper form and maintain it:  How to learn to shoot well before trying everything under the sun.   There is always a thread on killing power, speed, momementum, single bevel broadheads..EFOC and four strand strings.  Oh well, I guess I must be the one who isn't with-it.  Well...maybe Rusty.

[trashwood]

If skinny strings are working for ya all is the good. ya'll get more strings out of a spool.

for what every the reason I shoot better scores at long distance with 16 strands so that is what i'll be shooting. i'll keep watching till there is some kind of consensus from the bow huntings that they are actually quieter, fast, stable, and durable.  right now the feed back seems to be all over the place.

rusty