Bareshafting POC - does this sound right?

[adirondack46r]

Just finished bare shaft testing with some POC shafts. The results were a little baffling. By the way, last time I posted about bare shaft  tuning with woodies, I got a couple of recommendations that I just fletch 'em up and start there - skip the bare shaft step.

Anyway, my setup is 46@28, cut to center. I draw a full 28" I took two POC shafts spined at 57# and 63#, stripped off the fletches and started playing.  As expected the 57# shaft was quite weak. The 63# shaft shows slightly weak (nock left). The biggest mystery is that the shafts hit nock high at 10 - 15 yards no matter how low I move the nock. I can get it close but they always hit nock high. I think I have the spine pretty close with 63# but I am not sure what is going on with the nock setting. Any thoughts?

OL was probably right - I should just fletch 'em up, glue on some broadheads and get them grouping together and call it a day.

[reddogge]

You need some clearance for the fletching so I'd keep the nocking point a little high until you shoot them with fletching.  Just watch for porposing.  You didn't mention how much above perpendicular you went or came down to.

[adirondack46r]

I set the nock anywhere from about 1/8" up to 9/16". I think something else might be going on as well. My fletched arrows with weaker spines are hitting nock right (indicating stiff). My bare shafts with stiffer spines are hitting nock left (indicating weak). Seems a little bass ackwards.

[snag]

Where are they hitting as compared to fletched arrows?

[O.L. Adcock]

Snag is leading you in the right direction.."The biggest mystery is that the shafts hit nock high at 10 - 15 yards no matter how low I move the nock."

That's no mystery, that's typical for the "kick" bare shaft method, the left/right will mislead you also..Use the planing method...O.L.

[Orion]

Why would you expect shafts that are spined 10-15# heavier than the bow weight at your draw to spine weak?  Are you shooting a high a performance bow/string? Heavy points?  Shooting idiosyncracies probably explain the nock high as well as nock left findings.  As Snag notes, where are the shafts hitting compared to your fletched arrows?

[adirondack46r]

Snag, The bareshafts (60-63#) hit several inches right of EVERY fletched shaft I have from 55 - 65#. All fletched shafts (all 29" with 125 gr field points) seem to fly great.

Any of that make sense?

[adirondack46r]

Originally posted by Orion:
Why would you expect shafts that are spined 10-15# heavier than the bow weight at your draw to spine weak? ...

I would expect a 60-63#, 29" bareshaft to be about right for a 46@28 high performance recurve, according to the charts at arrowsbykelly, and according to about everything else I have read here.

This is my first foray into wood. Just trying to figure it out.

OL, I think you're right.

[O.L. Adcock]

Wood, carbon, aluminum...It's all the same. Be careful cause guess which direction overly stiff shafts will kick/group?...Yep, they'll show weak. If you drop point weight and things don't get better, that's the case...O.L.

[adirondack46r]

Actually, I stripped a few more shafts (I hate doing that) and what I am seeing is that a 55# bareshaft shows VERY weak, a 57# shaft shows pretty weak, and a 63# shows slightly weak - all based on 15 yards, consistently hitting right of fletched shafts with nocks pointing left.

Maybe all this makes sense and even the 63# shaft is slightly weak???

[SL]

Just put some broadheads on and shoot some arrows from 30 yards. That will show you alot. Sounds like your close, so the broadheads will tell the rest.
Its hard to tell a whole lot from 15yards though.
SL

[O.L. Adcock]

SL is correct, wide broadheads like Snuffers will tell you exactly the same thing without striping fletching. Narrow bh's will not...O.L.

[SlowBowinMO]

That's the way I prefer to do it as well, grouping the biggest broadheads I can find against field points.

[Old York]

Bob, without changing anything can you re-test at 20 yards and see what pattern develops?

I gave up "chasing nocks" except when the shafts almost hit the target sideways.

O.L. - "Be careful cause guess which direction overly stiff shafts will  kick/group ?...Yep, they'll show weak."

Ah-er-um ya lost me there, overly stiff shafts can't group both weak and stiff at the same time   :confused:

[snag]

If they are too stiff they will hit the riser instead of bending around the riser. It can kick them weak.

[Scrub_buck]

I bareshafted some D. Fir a couple of weeks ago.  I came up with a little different results than  what I was expecting as well.  

I was shooitng a Hill Big-5 and I am pulling right at 52# at my draw (27.5").  I experimented some with the arrow lenghts but setteled on a 29 inch shaft with 125 gr. head.  Anyway, the 45-50's nearly hit the target sideways head right nock left (very weak) and the 50-55's were almost dead on left and right ... maybe showing a little weak, and the 55-60's were dead on at 18 steps.  And as expected, the 60-65's proved to be very stiff.

I was expecting the 45-50's to be a better 'fit' because of the bow not being centershot and needing the arrow to flex further around the riser, but the stiffer arrows won out in my crude testing.  I have 2 dozen arrows ordered now... a dozen of 50-55's and a dozen 55-60's.  I will do a little more testing with them and nail it down better hopefully since they both shot well without feathers.

I did notice the arrows did hit the target at a downward angle (showing nock high) almost every shot I made, no matter where I nocked the arrow.  I was a little baffeled that I couldn't get it any better than I did.  The best I could pull off was the arrow maybe hitting at a 20 degree angle (still point down and tail up) at a nock point at 3/8ths of an inch above parallel.  

Any thought on why the arrows wouldn't level off and hit perfectly?

[Jeff Strubberg]

Ok, how the arrow flies to the target means very little.  Anything can throw this off....wind, a bad release, droppig your arm to watch the shaft fly...anything.  almost every target material exaggerates the problem, causing arrows hitting at a very slight angle to kick that same direction on impact.

It's where they impact in relation to fletched arrows that is important.

[adirondack46r]

Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Ok, how the arrow flies to the target means very little.  Anything can throw this off....wind, a bad release, droppig your arm to watch the shaft fly...anything.

It's where they impact in relation to fletched arrows that is important.

I would agree, but a. I am shooting inside and b.  it is incredibly consistent. My form is not the best, but I am pretty consistent. And, I have had excellent results bare shafting carbon.

So I know what you are saying, but I am not new to bare shaft testing, only to wood arrows.

[adirondack46r]

Originally posted by Old York:
Bob, without changing anything can you re-test at 20 yards and see what pattern develops?

OK, did that today. Used 2 arrows - one spined at 55 and one at 63. The 55 at 20 yards went right and low by SEVERAL FEET, over and over same result. The 63 went low and only slightly right, again, over and over with the same result.

[Shaun]

What type of bow and what is your actual draw length?

Some high performance bows are cut up to 3/16" past center and will require spine as much as 30# over indicated draw weight. Try taping a thin (paper match stick) piece on your riser to move it out from center and try the same arrows. If they fly better, you are still under spined for your set up.