3Rivers Archery



The Trad Gang Digital Market













Contribute to Trad Gang and Access the Classifieds!

Become a Trad Gang Sponsor!

Traditional Archery for Bowhunters






LEFT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS TRAD GANG CLASSIFIEDS ACCESS RIGHT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS


Author Topic: Speed test-opinions?  (Read 1727 times)

Offline jwillis

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2009, 03:47:00 PM »
I am a hobby builder who submitted a couple of recurves and longbows last year and attended the WTT event. You are correct in thinking it was a gathering of garage ninnies for fun, competition and learning. OL you really should submit a bow for the competition and consider appearing at the event. It doesn't have to be one of your stock bows...lol. The invitation is open, so anyone with doubts or criticisms should submit their bow. Anyone can "talk the talk" but you have to submit a bow to "walk the talk"! Jim

Offline Vig

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 152
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2009, 03:52:00 PM »
Mike-
  That's a quick bow.  My GrizzlyBow takedown longbow is almost as quick... but I shoot big heavy arrows in the 12-13 gpp range.  Slows it considerably, but still in the 180s.  You don't see a lot of other longbows (or recurves even) keeping up.  Would like to see the 10 gpp numbers on your bow... Do you know if Blacky Schwarz going to do a full review of a GrizzlyBow for TG?

-Vig
-----------
The worst day shooting is better than the best day at work.

Offline O.L. Adcock

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 823
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2009, 10:41:00 PM »
Jim, I'd love to come if I could but just isn't in the cards. I have little spare time so I have to prioritize. As far as just sending a bow, I'd like to see things more standarized, and if I did, it wouldn't be a "special" or hand picked bow. None of the Mulaney tests were either. But I don't have anything to prove as long as the fastest bow Norb has tested is below 211 and 18 or 20 distance records for the bows hold....O.L.
---Six NAA/FITA National and World flight records.----

Offline Hornseeker

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 232
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2009, 11:10:00 PM »
We have a hot rod class..just for fun OL... its not something to "bolster" our sales or egos..as much as its just pure fun... If you were to "hot rod" a bow..and it shot...say...215 with 10 gpp!! with a skinny string and 6" brace... wouldn't it be "fun"?

Anyhow..I think the whole thing is great fun. I am comfortable with what I build and am trying to squeeze a few more FPS into a solid design...

I too wish I could make it up there...but wont be..not this year.

E

Offline O.L. Adcock

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 823
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2009, 12:09:00 AM »
You guys want to test a true "flight" bow? Probably require anyone within 30' to wear goggles and a cup!  :)  You could ring up some numbers to make the compounds cring but not at 10gpp, 1.5-2 maybe.....O.L.
---Six NAA/FITA National and World flight records.----

Offline Ken Rohloff

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 8
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2009, 02:01:00 AM »
Id love it if we had flite shooting in the area but its just not something very common around here.Id have to buy and learn how to set up some "real" flite arrows to be able to compete. Not having just the right arrows could leave a good bow looking bad and I guess could also be said for the other way around. In light of that being said, flight shooting under competition has quite a few "variables", doesnt it?

 As for WTT III being more "standardized", all bows will use the exact same style and strand count of string. we will be using the same uni nock in all of the arrows and were riging up a way to measure nock fit to string.(probably with a trigger scale)and all bows in the event will be shot with a 6 3/4" brace this year, no ifs, ands or butts. Im open to and welcome any other suggestions in "standardizing" that anyone may offer.
Im so much cooler on line

Offline joe sherer

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 5
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2009, 08:57:00 AM »
in my opinion wtt1,2,3 is a great way for a guy to get an idea of what is available and what is duable in the world of stickbows without buying every bow out there to try. i own alot of fast bows and along with those i have ken's first takedown longbow. it is truly faster than anything i got or have shot in the past. i have had to reprogram myself cause i was shooting over everything i shot at. noise, handshock are nonexistant. shot repetability is excelent. definatly the best bow i have shot to date.

Offline O.L. Adcock

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 823
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2009, 12:19:00 PM »
Ken, "all bows will use the exact same style and strand count of string."

And all the bows are going to be the same draw weight or are some going to be 40# and others 60?

This is part of consistancy and standardization, shooting the same strand count on a 50#er as you do a 60#er isn't standardized and unfairly handicaps the lighter bows. This is the same as shooting the heavy bows at 10gpp and the lighter bows at 11 as an example...

"and all bows in the event will be shot with a 6 3/4" brace this year, no ifs, ands or butts."

This is a tough one..."longbows" in general will shoot well at lower brace heights then recurves will. Folks seem to like bows being tested as close to real world as possible. So shooting all bows at the same brace height benefits recurves artificially. 6 3/4" is a good number for longbows as most are going to shoot well between 6 1/2" to 7" so that's a good "middle" compromise. Recurves "on average" in the real world will be shot at a higher brace height more in line with 7 3/4" to 8 1/4+".....Norb looks at the manufactures recommendations and sets them at the lower end of that range. That could be fudged by telling him an unrealisticly low range but after testing a few thousand bows he'd notice and question such numbers along with the sloppy shooting that comes with it.

What we/I do if testing bow "a" against bow "b", if it's a longbow we set brace height at 7" and recurves at 8". The actual number doesn't matter as it's all relative, point is setting recurves and longbows the same isn't realistic or fair. A 1" split would be closer to middle ground averages.

Arrow nock fit, I've seen extreme cases on lighter bows where nock fit robbed 10fps. So if the goal to test the "bows", even 1 fps due to nock fit is unacceptable. If you do/could measure nock release tension with a trigger scale, it's too tight. 2# of nock release pull on a 60# bow is less percentage wise then it is on a 50#..Make them falling off loose.

Arrows.....Since it would be impossible to idealy "tune" the arrows to the bow, they should be bare shaft...Once we were testing a bow and it was reading 5-6fps lower then it should have. Someone noticed the shelf rug was getting tore up. Due to poor tuning and or a high quill, it was catching on the shelf/rug. Stripped the feathers, boom, 5 fps right there. The only time arrow tuning bothers the numbers is when the arrows are way too stiff or way too weak to the point they hit the riser. So bare shafts minimize that problem. Also, what if someone handed you a bow with an elevated rest while all others are shooting off the shelf? Elevated rests will average higher speeds then off the shelf will. In the flight shooting, you can take any given bow and do the best you can off the shelf, then turn around and set it up to the best you can get off an elevated rest, the elevated rest will shoot 100+ yards further..All from the same bow.

Still with arrows....Are some arrows going to be camo, others black, others with crown dips or wraps? Chronos are photo triggered and the sensors can "see" some colors under some light conditions better then others therfore will "trigger" differently. All arrows should be identical in color including tips and nocks. More then 1 fps difference in a several shot string indicates something isn't consistant.

From the video I couldn't tell how draw length was being controled? The quick draw/release doesn't give one faith in it's accuracy...Draw and hold for a second or two. A ratcheting type drawing device to a hard stop with a reach over push of a button would at least look more controled.

Any one of these "details" in and of themselves may not be big number wise, some more so then others. The combination of paying attention to detail of several can add up to 10+fps pretty quick. These are details those in the business of testing bows are aware of, the average Joe is not. It's not they/we don't want to do a good fair job, we just don't have the experience and knowledge to know any better. Just some ideas to chew on....O.L.
---Six NAA/FITA National and World flight records.----

Offline O.L. Adcock

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 823
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2009, 12:24:00 PM »
Joe, that's a good point..The slow bow crowd start throwing around "accuracy", "stability", shooting quality arguements as if high performance bows suffer in these areas..I've never found that to be true..The higher they perform, the better they are all the way around. Not that someone can't do something to the best FITA recurve and screw it up, they can but it's not the bows fault nor is it "performance" related....O.L.
---Six NAA/FITA National and World flight records.----

Offline James Wrenn

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1933
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2009, 12:36:00 PM »
Great post OL on paying attention to the little things!Most don't realize how all the little things can add up.The little things are what allows me to hunt with lighter bows and still use big broadheads without worrys.  ;)
....Quality deer management means shooting them before they get tough....

Offline O.L. Adcock

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 823
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2009, 01:25:00 PM »
Absolutly James, archery is nothing but a whole bunch of little details strung together, no pun intended!  :) ...The priorities on those details depends on the job you are trying to do and the results you are looking for. The more we know about those details, the better we can prioritize what is important for the task at hand. If someone wants to ignore some of the details and shoot 10 more pounds to make up for, go for it!  :) ....O.L.
---Six NAA/FITA National and World flight records.----

Offline Ken Rohloff

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 8
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2009, 02:01:00 PM »
O.L.
 I totally agree with you on the string weight to bows pull weight and those percentage numbers and have thought about that for quite some time but in the reality of things we cant control EVERYTHING. No matter what we or anyone does there will always be the "grasping for straws" variable in which one bow didnt get a certain advantage that the other might have built into it.I will say that I havnt noticed quite the extreams in varience that you mentioned in your post though. and the triggering mechanism on last years rig and the same with this years machine trip at the same instant by a trigger that is tripped by a solid and stationary bar. so I dont quite see how it can be different between being triggered as its moving slowly backwards or if its held. they still trip at the exact same spot. ??I actually went down stairs and tried this a few minutes ago and got the exact same reading.
We are doing everything we possibly can to make it equal. but no matter what, nothing will be "perfect" But then again same could be said for Norb and Blackys tests too. They dont test 10 20 or 30 bows in comparison fashion on the same day. and taking off the feathers???? I think more guys might want to know what the bows performance is "with" the feathers vs without.I think keeping it more "real world" might make it more valid and interesting to the hunter minded people.(but I can go ask and am open to changing it if everyone else is game) I guess we just arent interested in catering to the scientists in lab coats yet. but stay tuned, that may change.
  Look,...this isnt an event in which to promote any sales for ANYONE and I know some may get the wrong impression based on the fact that we bring it out to the public in video form and show the bows in action. its mearly entertainment value at best for like minded hobbiests type builders, and the results are only going to be valid to those interested in the way "we" test, thats all. We cant help if people interpret it differently and cant help what they say. but no one is putting any words in any mouths.
 Thanks again for the input and it is all taken into serious consideration to evolve the event and to seek validation by the majority.
Im so much cooler on line

Offline O.L. Adcock

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 823
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2009, 04:32:00 PM »
Kem, "No matter what we or anyone does there will always be the "grasping for straws" variable in which one bow didnt get a certain advantage that the other might have built into it.

Sure, that's why it takes Norb a day or more per bow and get 28 pages worth of evaluation and data, per bow. Doing only one gpp arrow reduces the time a lot but is still significant.

"and the triggering mechanism on last years rig and the same with this years machine trip at the same instant by a trigger that is tripped by a solid and stationary bar."

It might be just fine, I said I couldn't "see" what it was doing.

"and taking off the feathers???? I think more guys might want to know what the bows performance is "with" the feathers vs without."

There you go...You are letting a variable other then "the bow" into the mix.

"its mearly entertainment value at best for like minded hobbiests type builders, and the results are only going to be valid to those interested in the way "we" test, thats all. We cant help if people interpret it differently and cant help what they say."

Nothing wrong with that if that's the way they want it. Personally, "to play" I want things more formal only because I've seen too much shenanigins over the years. Not saying that would/does happen, I just don't know. Some are taking it way too serious for it to be just entertainment....O.L.
---Six NAA/FITA National and World flight records.----

Offline Ken Rohloff

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 8
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2009, 04:51:00 PM »
I agree, many are indeed taking it to seriously. as if what we are doing hurts them or something or is puting their reputation is at stake. nothing could be further from the intended path of this event. at least not from my perspective and as long as Im elected to host it the "shenanigins" DONT GET PLAYED! Thats why I prefer all the witnesses and competitors of each other to be in the same room and all have a hand in weighing and participating in that aspect of the event. and this year there will be more hands on between competitors. for however "informal" this event is, its still very importaint to me that we have a fair fight.
Im so much cooler on line

Offline TNstickn

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 816
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #74 on: March 30, 2009, 05:58:00 PM »
Ken, O.L., between you two I've actually learned something about bow testing...I dont know squat!!!  :eek:  I appreciate the time you guys take out to educate the goofballs like myself who completely "nerd out" over every aspect of bow building. Keep it goin guys, It will only benifit us all when trying to interpret bow performance. I thought I was doing something, markin 28" on my arrow and lettin it fly through the chrony!!  :biglaugh:
Pick a spot.>>>>-------> Shoot straight.

Offline Ken Rohloff

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 8
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #75 on: March 30, 2009, 06:46:00 PM »
TN,
 Measureing that way is just fine if you watch it as closley as possible. you can actually get some very consistent numbers that way too. your results may very slightly more,,, but so what? Youre still getting to know what you need to know. just run a few more arrows than usual and get a good average.
 I myself just came in from testing a few different bows (actually arrows) using a few of the above suggestions to see how much variences there were between bare shaft vs fletched. you could say I learned something today too.  ;)
Im so much cooler on line

  • Guest
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2009, 10:33:00 PM »
Well, all I know is all but one of them ( a left hand selfbow) are a pretty good bit faster than every bow I own, and I own a few of them. I seem to put meat in the freezer anyway.

Bisch

Offline StickBowManMI

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 669
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2009, 10:42:00 PM »
I think that the slowest bow was 146FPS and the rest pretty much grouped between 175 and 189. Seems like those speeds are fine enough for anyone to put meat on the table. Of course, smoothness of draw and other factors dictate why some of us like one bow and others like another one.

Offline grizz

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 146
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2009, 10:51:00 PM »
O L, I like your reasoning about building a fast bow without compromising accuracy or causing any more handshock. You hit the proverbial nail on the head, my fastest have been the most dependable, smoothest shooting, and hit where you are looking! Do you need a slower bow to achieve all of this? Absolutely and Undeniably NOT! Ken, Just let me know when, where, and how many to bring!
mike

Offline M Venator

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: Speed test-opinions?
« Reply #79 on: April 01, 2009, 12:16:00 AM »
Vig –

Sorry, I missed a couple days and…from the looks of it…a lot of discussion.  All healthy and interesting guys!

Don’t know about the Blacky test for sure, but I hope so!  Looks like Grizz is going to participate in the WTT though, so it should be interesting.  

As I see it, traditional gear…longbows in particular…are like cars and women.  Some like them fast and some like them slow, but at the end of the day we all want ours to look good and perform just the way we like!


-MV
    :D
It don't get no better than this...

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©