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Author Topic: Ashby on light weight bows...  (Read 12972 times)

Offline overbo

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #140 on: June 06, 2009, 10:57:00 PM »
Nut,
What I was wondering,If more FOC has a adverse effect on penatration at longer distances?

Offline IronCreekArcher

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #141 on: June 06, 2009, 11:08:00 PM »
I have read all Ashby reports in their entirety...they are a great read.  Based on that I suspected the outcome it was just nice to confirm.
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Offline J from Denmark

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #142 on: June 07, 2009, 04:03:00 AM »
Elknut, now I actually think that you just dont want to learn anything from your tests. comparing penetration from fat alu arrows to skinny carbons tells you nothing about the effect of weight.
I am of this thread now, and you will never know the true potential of your bow my freind.

Offline Don Stokes

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #143 on: June 07, 2009, 08:33:00 AM »
A couple of observations:

Grains per pound mean nothing if you are comparing a self bow with a high-end recurve. My 40# recurve shoots the same arrow bare-shafted, with equivalent speed and trajectory, as my 55# self bow. With a 600 g. arrow, 15 g/# vs 10.9 g/#. Equal performance.

Penetration on live animals is vastly different from penetration in any other medium, including dead animals. The instant blood flow makes diameter insignificant. The blood is an excellent lubricant. Diameter IS important to penetration in high-friction media, like foam.

Now and forever more, the single most important factor in penetration is an arrow that flies perfectly. Everything else is window dressing.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.- Ben Franklin

Offline elknut1

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #144 on: June 07, 2009, 09:26:00 AM »
Dan, that's great!!! My hat's off to you for taking the time to test your own personal equipment! Now you know what it's capable of & this will build confidence, your setup is definitely in the ballpark, good luck to you & your Dad on your hunts!!!

   Overbo, I will test something in the 550grn---2 arrows that weigh the same & shot out of the same bow. One with maybe 175grn head wt & the other in the 225-250grn head wt. but both arrows at the same wt. My gut & testing tells me the heavier head arrow will do best! (grin) I will shoot them at 40yds.

  J From----sorry you feel that way! But I feel you are splitting hairs here & I'm not interested in the perfect arrow & head wt. I just need "ballpark" This isn't a competition! I am a hunter foremost & want a good lethal setup, I don't need scientific. Nothing personal Sir but that's just me. I agree head weight is a contributor to penetration, no doubt about it. This is why I shoot 200grns up-front on a 485-495grn arrow at 55#.
   On another note of aluminum versus carbon, it's pretty apparent that the skinny carbon is not a good comparison by some because of it's smaller diameter & that results show it's a better penetrator. Well, if that's the case stay with the carbon with good FOC that tunes to ones setup & you know you will receive the best possible penetration with everything being equal! Simple as that!

   This doesn't mean you can't find a great penetrating aluminum arrow that stacks up well for ones bow, it just means that a carbon will slide in a bit deeper, possibly into the dirt on the other side!

  As I mentioned in an earlier post we've put arrows with a 125grn total head wt. at 41yds through an elk, pass-through. On another hunt my son was shooting the same cedar arrows tipped with a 2-blade swickey at 525grn at 60# he put that arrow through the scapula of another elk, the elk was dead in a 150yds! He was lucky & caught the bottom half of it or he would've went over the lungs!
  How much more are we to ask from out of our setups? I agree penetration is a huge factor, we are achieving that & now have our setups to perform even better with general testing & adding a bit more head wt. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it will blow through elk, we are in the ballpark! Each bow can be different you've shown that in your example, tune your bow to the best possible setup as an individual bow & you will be good to go!

  ElkNut1

Offline Bonebuster

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #145 on: June 07, 2009, 09:29:00 AM »
I have always shot heavy bows, and until a few years ago, I used arrows that would be considered "light" for my draw weight.

I began experimenting with heavier arrows, and found nothing but benefits in doing so.

When my oldest son came of age to hunt, I found his forty pound bow performed best when pushing AT LEAST the well known 10gpp. A bit more was better, with a high FOC.

We tried arrows that were around 8gpp, and found that it was easy to tell what worked better, just by the sound of the bow. Ninety grains DID make a difference.

Like Don Stokes said, it all comes down to a perfectly flying arrow.

Offline nightowl1

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #146 on: June 07, 2009, 09:34:00 AM »
how many grains per pound did Dr. Ashby get to or prefer? if he was testing 60 70 and 80 lbs and using 700+gr arrows that seems to be still the standard 9-11gpp and his test were mainly for EFOC
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Offline IronCreekArcher

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #147 on: June 07, 2009, 09:56:00 AM »
I would like to get Dr. Ashbys opinion on the fact that everything else is just "window dressing" in realation to the "perfect flying arrow".  I would be willing to bet money that he would highly disagree.  You need to read the reports...they are a great wealth of information and QUANTIFIED FACT related to this very topic.
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Online rastaman

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #148 on: June 07, 2009, 10:05:00 AM »
and Paul, thanks for all the info and testing and time you have put into this!  Good thread here, good, healthy debate!   :thumbsup:
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Offline Littlefeather

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #149 on: June 07, 2009, 10:10:00 AM »
Dr Ashby is here with me on this morning. He hasn't been online much lately but said I could answer this question for him. In question on what weight arrows were being tesed(9-11 gpp statement above).

All weights were tested from 380 grains-1500 grains total. When using the ACSCX(64# BOW) the arrow that performed best was 15 gpp.It shot that arrow weight faster than Docs 82# longbow.

A lot depends on arrow design with the 82# bow. On a normal foc arrow the best penetrating arrows was achieved with arrows over 900 grains. At extreem FOC the weight can be dropped below 800 and exceed the penetration of the 900 gr arrow. This is with the same shaft diameter, broadhead, etc. Essentially the same dimention arrows. This is all done with perfectly bare shafted tuned arrows. Hope that answers that question. (Doc Ashby) CK

Offline JimB

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #150 on: June 07, 2009, 10:24:00 AM »
I'm not sure if he has a specific formula.Maybe someone with better memory can answer that specifically.

I have been reading the 2007 Study Report,Update #8 and it is a very good one to read.It isn't as complicated to wade through as some of it and it lists penetration enhancing factors in order of importance and has pictures.He also gives compelling reasons why his findings are applicable to hunting whitetails and other game,not just the heavy skinned/boned animals he uses for real tissue testing.

If you want to read some of the Ashby reports,I would recommend at least reading this one.It summarizes some good stuff-in plain English.

I order of importance,he lists:
1.Structural Integrity of the entire arrow system
2.Arrow flight
3.EFOC
He places Arrow Mass,#6 and says this:"You should use the greatest arrow mass that acceptable trajectory allows.Even with every other penetration-maximizing factor in place,greater arrow mass still equates to more usable-force,and more outcome penetration."

At no.12 on the list (thats almost the bottom) he places Arrow Mass (weight) above the heavy bone threshold.I believe this is an arrow weighing at least 650 grains.He goes on to say "On heavy bone impact this factor will jump to very near the head of all factors; excepting only structural integrity and, perhaps, quality of arrow flight"

He also says:" From a personal standpoint, I will not hunt with an arrow below this threshold.Bone impacts of one type or another occur on most hits, and bad hits can occur at any time.

Regardless of the arrow setup or broadhead tip design you use,there is a marked difference in the frequency of penetrating heavy bone when total arrow mass is below this threshold.The threshold is at or near, 650 grains of total arrow mass."

Offline SteveB

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #151 on: June 07, 2009, 11:32:00 AM »
Quote
Penetration on live animals is vastly different from penetration in any other medium, including dead animals  
EXACTLY!!
And live animals will never give a controlled enough test to ever split the hairs that some wish to do. The best we can do is take the anecdotal results from live game shots and form our own opinions accordingly for what gives us the results we seek individually. There is no one right way - if you recover the critters you hit, it works.

Steve

Offline leatherneck

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #152 on: June 07, 2009, 11:54:00 AM »
I've followed this thread and feel that some are misinterrupting Dr. Ashbys tests. He is not testing what will out penetrate through skin, tissue, lungs,etc. on a perfect hit. We folks, are hunters. Sorry to say the perfect hit is not always the case. If it was then I would shoot dull broadheads and it will go through tissue. The Dr's test were for the marginal hits that occur all too frequently. Is that 480 grain going to penetrate better on a deers shoulder than the 680? According to the test, NO.
Point is, lets compare the facts before we criticize what the doctor has done. Understand his tests before making an assumption.
I really cant understand how a thread about which arrow to hunt elk with turned into this.  :scared:  

Been fun, I'm outta here!

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Offline LPM

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #153 on: June 07, 2009, 12:02:00 PM »
Maybe the high tech "Bag that Buck" guys on the outdoor channel will come up with a retractable broadhead that gets smaller when it hits bone.

That's what it's all about.  We've all been there.........Something happens and the arrow hits ..."A little Too far back

When that happens, we're either glad we have a big broadhead or wishing we had.  The reverse is true.  

When we hear the crack of shoulder bone, We're either glad we're shooting a heavy arrow with a bone blasting two blade single bevel broad head or wishing we we're.

Ken Beck said it well once when asked what the thought the best broadhead was.  "Tell me where your going to hit the animal first".

I think that realistic uncertainty applies to our entire set up and the way we choose to hunt.

A guy that hunts deer from high stands most of the time wouldn't want the risk of a poor hit with an entrance wound way up high on the deer and no exit wound low.  

If he has the strength to pull hevy bows he can get away with more choices.

 Many other folks would opt for lower stands or make sure that their arrow broadhead choice was meant to blast through at the cost of loss in trajectory which would not be as important with a high stand.

Match your gear to your hunting style and keep it in your own performace requirement  "envelope".


Great threads guys...........
LPM

Offline elknut1

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #154 on: June 07, 2009, 06:57:00 PM »
I agree hitting any kind of bone can prove a disappointment doesn't matter what you're shooting! No guarantees you get an arrow into the vitals because you feel you have a bullet proof setup, because nobody does! Anytime a leg bone is considered in the equation as a high productive shot to reach the vitals, then your shot thinking is way out of line! A hunter should allow things to develop & choose all shots carefully.
   Sure crap happens but really how many times does this happen in real life hunting situations? Too, is a two bladed head a cure-all? A lot depends on the hunter himself, he must examine his strong points & his weak points. Are you the hunter one that consistently "crowds" the shoulder & just can't help it? If so, consider a 2-bladed head! Are you a hunter who seems to crowd the liver or one lung because of angles or even the guts but rarely are near the shoulder blade area? Choose a 3-bladed head. Everyone of us fall into a certain category or even our hunting groups for that matter, just think back on stats over the last 5 years & see where you as an individual or your group lies!

   I suspect that Mr. Ashby has at one time or another been a "crowd" the shoulder type hunter so has come up with a formula that will help him out as this issue arises. Heh, I applaud him for taking the necessary measures to help out his cause. I say this because it's not the standard to try & force an arrow through the scapula or leg bone of any critter in an attempt to reach the vitals. We should be patient & wait till a much better shooting angle arises or let the animal walk, not just force a shot because he may get away despite your equipment!

   Our hunting group has killed as many animals as anyones & I can't ever recall one leg bone hit, yes several scapula hits but those were rare indeed in comparison to the hundreds of non-scapula or any bone hits. (ribs don't count) This shows me the facts that major bone rarely comes into play but it's much more common to be just off the lungs towards the liver or guts or too high or too low in those areas. Penetration is rarely the issue with well tuned equipment, when this happens I want a large wound channel & a blood trail. If the arrow stays inside I want it carving it up like a cleaver this is why razor sharp heads are a must!

  On elk blood does not readily spill out like on deer, the hair soaks it up good, you need a hole where blood continues to ooze even if the arrow still plugs the entrance hole some! Here are some actual facts I've put together!

 
  2-Blade , 3-Blade or 2-Blades with bleeders! Which are best? A lot depends on what you're hunting & what you expect from your head of use. It seems to be a subject often discussed & will continue to be so after we're all long gone! (grin) I have my preference as well, the only difference may be that I've been able to pull some stats together over the years of using both types of heads. My conclusions as to what's best for us are supported by my stats & findings under real elk hunting conditions with a few deer thrown in here & there! (grin)  I gathered these from the last 5 years from our elk hunts, this is important to me because elk are thick skinned & hided, more so than deer. What works well on elk will no doubt carry over into like animals. When hunting elk I want blood on the ground, even on less desirable hits. This is very important if you hunt country with thick under-growth where trailing is tough without it.
  These stats are from 24 elk killed, 2 cows & 22 bulls, here's my break-down, hard facts don't lie.  (grin)  Out of these 24 Elk two were hit in the scapula/shoulder plate, one with a 2-blade Swickey 125grn & the other from a 3-bladed muzzy 125grn. Both elk were recovered.  Seven other Elk were hit in less desirable areas bringing that total to 9. The remaining 15 were hit in the heart & lung area. This shows us that 62% of the elk taken or the 15 would have expired quickly no matter the head used. The less desirable hits were 9, that's 38% out of the so called "kill zone" when this happens you need your head to do all the damage it can & still have a blood trail to follow.  Fortunately for us this was the case with razor sharp heads.

  Here's how I view the results, 2 scapula hits out of 24 elk. That's 6 1/2% that were hit where a 2 blade could have made the difference, the one 3-bladed muzzy scapula hit was from a compound bow, it still had the energy to penetrate & do it's job. This leaves us with 93 1/2% of shots somewhere in an elks body away from major bone as scapula/shoulder hits that so many are concerned about. Ribs on an elk or like animals are no match from a reasonable setup where 40+ pounds is used along with 10grn per lb arrows. Distance is always a factor especially in lighter draw weights & setups. Point is, we have now turned to using nothing but 3-bladed heads or 2 blades with bleeders, why, larger wound channel & way more blood for trailing. We've taken 6 elk with 2-blades all results are the same, that is, little to no blood spilled. Funny thing is where the elk dies there's generally lots of blood from 2 blades but none in-between for tracking. This would be bad for the 38% where elk were hit outside major organs. I will play the odds & use 3- bladed heads, 93 1/2% chance I will miss the scapula & yet have plenty of blood on the ground for tracking purposes when needed!
    Yes, 2-blades kill, but blood trails are at a minimum. 3 blades kill & blood loss is maximized! This is not a post, use what I use, this is a post we stick with what has proven itself time & time again to work & offer us great blood trails in very dense underbrush much of the time. It's not uncommon to be in chest high grasses & willow brush, if you've tracked game in such spots you'd better be following blood because tracks are no-where to be found! Use common sense & consider the areas you hunt, use what works best for you!

  ElkNut1

Offline Guru

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #155 on: June 07, 2009, 07:41:00 PM »
Good post elknut     ;)
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Offline leatherneck

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #156 on: June 07, 2009, 11:44:00 PM »
Very nice post ELKNUT1. But lets take your focus from a 500 to 700 pound animal to a 150 to 250 pound deer and your room for error goes way down. But this post is about an elk hunt and not deer so I'll leave that for another time. I will agree on the 3-blade. I love the blood trail of my snuffers compared to my 2-blades.

Back on topic- nightowl, I'm sure you see there are alot of different views on this topic. I would suggest you use what you feel comfortable with in your setup. As elknut stated, the lighter arrow will do the trick on elk as well as deer.  So will the heavier one. Maybe an arrow weight in the middle of both will satisfy you. Whatever arrow you decide needs to be tuned for your bow. And whatever YOU decide, will give you the confidence you need. Best of luck to ya!!!

BTW- If your going elk hunting, may I suggest ELKNUTS DVD pack. It is well worth the money and he knows his elk.

Mike
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Offline nightowl1

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #157 on: June 08, 2009, 12:35:00 AM »
I am completely suprised at how much information I gained from this post... I was hoping to have some solid facts thrown at me and i was right...
Elknut you took the road less defended and did a great job with some very strong common sense arguments and all the Ashby supports have some good backing too.

My decision is still I think either will work but I am now more confident with BOTH setups. I believe i can grab any arrow out of my man room and kill anything in reach. Thanks guys...

Now if i can convince my brain and body to focus my shots better...
Combo Hunter 46@28

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Offline albertan

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #158 on: June 08, 2009, 01:05:00 AM »
I have been following this thraed as well and have found it extremely interesting and informative.  Thanks for all those who have posted their test results and field experience. I have just started using carbons (Axis 500s, 30 1/2 in, 3 5" feathers, 100 gr insert and 150 gr 4 blade Magnus bhead - total arrow weight 515 gr) in my 50# recurve.  I want a set up that will be good enough for moose/elk/big black bears as well as deer.  Have used aluminums in the past and had good luck but want to put the odds even more in my favor.  This new setup flies like darts and I was anxious to try it on the real thing.  I took this black bear last week from a tresstand over bait at 15 yds.  Complete pass thru, 50 yd recovery.  Was really impressed and think I have found a winning combination.
 
Elknut -- great thoughts and I am now thinking that a 3 blade may even be a better option for what type of critters I am hunting. What would you suggest?
Brent
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Offline J from Denmark

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #159 on: June 08, 2009, 04:12:00 AM »
Ok not of the thread yet.
Elknut, I agree with your observations and standpoint on 2 vs 3 blades, they match my own very closely.

And I am glad to hear that you finally accepted the fact that arrowdiameter is a factor.

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